New mam who's not too sure what to expect!

[Cherelynn]

My daughter is almost 4 months old. When I put her down, either for her naps or at bed-time, she will cry for around 5/10 mins or lie and grumble for probably 15 mins before she drops off to sleep. Is it okay for her to cry and grumble like this, or should she just go down without complaint? I wondered if perhaps I am putting her down too soon as she is very rarely up 2 hours between each nap. I look for the signs of tiredness, yawing or jerking arms and legs, then take her right up. Perhaps I am leaving it to long? Sorry, I have never posted here before and as this is my first baby I'm really not too sure what I'm doing!

Any advice greatly received!

Well done Cherelynn your doing the right thing. I don't know of any children that just roll over and go to sleep when put to bed. My ds2 is now 15mth and he still cries a little bit when put in his cot but as he's got older the time has got shorter. I think its just the seperation that makes them do this.

But keep up the good work and the less you pamper them at this early stage the better sleeper they will be and you won't be making a rod for your own back. Which I know is hard especially when its your first.

Sounds absolutely right to me. Welcome to Mumsnet Cherelynn!

Welcome to Mumsnet Cherelynn. Sounds like you are doing absolutely great. You will probably find that some days she will go down with a bit of fussing and crying and other days without a peep. Like mands1 says, by letting her settle herself this will encourage good sleeping habits.

Your daughter sounds exactly like my little 4 month old connor. I used to rock him to sleep and as soon as i would stop he would wake again and start crying, even though you could see that he was very tired. So one day last week i just put him down and let him cry and grumble for 5 mins and he just dropped off on his own.
Now he always falls asleep within 5 mins and wakes up a happy chappy! Sometimes he doesnt even grumble he will just lay there and then thats it. So i definately think your doing the right thing. it has worked for us and we can get so much more done around the house now without spending ages trying to get him to fall asleep. Sorry people if i have just waffled for a long time.

Thanks you all for the notes, it has made me feel better as I wasn't sure whether she is meant to fall straight to sleep. It always makes me feel a bit guilty, like I shouldn't be putting her to bed so soon. I always sit with her until she has stoped muttering and is calm, but she nearly always has a little cry or grumble.

She doesn't seem to want to nap for longer than 3/4 of an hour to an hour, but I have read in other postings here how to try and encourage a longer nap so I am going to give that a go today, mainly because she probably has 4 hour naps a day just now and I think it would be better for her if she had a longer afternoon nap.

Thanks again

My Hv told me to try to keep my 13 week old ds awake for quite a long stretch in the afternoon so that he would go down to sleep at 7pm. This didn't seem to work and he would get quite hysterical when I put him in his cot. I have since read that at this stage you should let them sleep in the day when they want to as otherwise they just get overtired and won't go down in the evening anyway. I now let him sleep when he wants to in the day (for the time being) and he is much better at going down at 7pm.

I hope you don't mind me throwing another question in this string as I too am a first time mum and have run out of ideas! I have two sleep questions about my ten week old ds.

Firstly he sleeps relatively well at night (wakes every 3.5-4hrs for feeds) but I have to rock him to sleep before putting him in the cot, else he cries, and then my dh and I take 5-10 mins trying to swaddle him in the cot asleep (he will not let us swaddle him whilst awake) as his arms and leg movements wake him up all too often if this isn't done.
Secondly, he will not settle in his cot during the day and he subsequently has four 1hour naps a day on my chest. The quality of sleep isn't usually very good and again I bounce him back to sleep when he goes into a light sleep every 20 mins or so.

Any ideas? Thanks for your help.

i always find that newborns sleep forever (ds1) or like my ds3 nap for 20 mins or so. As they get older they get onto more established predictable sleeps that last for longer.

Karen99 - probbly not a long term soluton but have you tried a bouncy chair or even a wind-up swing for the naps. Both worked well at about this age for dd (well as well as anything did!) and at least it leaves you hands free. Keep trying putting him down to sleep - I just found out by accident that dd could get to sleep by herself and when she does she sleeps a lot better. I have to say at 10 weeks dd was a nightmare to get to sleep at night and even to nap, and she just seemed to change all the time - 4 hour naps sounds good to me!

Karen, it's important to let your baby fall asleep on his own so that when he wakes up in the night (as everyone does) he knows how to go back to sleep without you rocking him again. We realised this when our ds was 5 weeks old and needed breasfeeding or rocking to sleep every time he came into a light sleep (45 minute intervals!) throughout the night. It is fine to let your baby cry for a while before he falls asleep - but obviously be certain that there is nothing wrong with him (stuck in cot bars, hungry, ill, etc.) It is HORRID listening to it though. Our ds used to cry himself to sleep every time. He's now 9 months and doesn't cry much any more, and he's a brilliant sleeper! We have never rushed into him when he's cried in the night and I think that's helped too as he's learnt to settle himself without my help if he doesn't really need anything. He's realised that getting mummy out of bed is usually more effort than it's worth! The Richard Ferber book 'Solve your child's sleep problems' has some useful info - the controlled crying method is controversial, but he does explain the science of sleep in a way I could understand. The is really garbled - hope some of it makes sense!

Umm my 3 yrs 6 month old dd1 still protests when we put her to bed. The level of protestation changes but its always there .

Thanks for the advice. I will try the wind-up swing, ninga, as he wouldn't go in it when he was younger, but things may be different with another month under his belt.

My brother has just lent me Ferber's book - thanks vivie. However I'm still unsure whether to try the sleep training at such a young age as he still seems so dependent on me and dh, but then again that feeling will never change(!) so if it will help him have better sleep I'm all for trying it.. How I wish there was a diffinitive answer to this one!! I guess we can try it on his daytime naps tomorrow and if it doesn't work put it on the shelf for a few months. What do you think about his age (10 weeks)?

DS must have read my last message as he was up every two hours last night and none of us got any sleep (did I say good nught sleeper??).. and he is sleeping on my chest as we speak trying to catch up what he lost

Thanks again, I'll keep checking for any more tips over the next few days. K.

Forgot to ask, do any of you have problems with the "startle reflex" waking up your young ones, and also having them reject swaddling? This is the other hurdle we have once ds learns how to fall asleep himself, how do we then stop the reflex from waking him again without the swaddle?

Get a sleeping bag, don't kick the covers or swaddle off and keep them really cosy. The reflex should stop very soon, mine gets gripe which makes him writhe around a lot.

Thanks Kaz, will try a sleeping bag now baby is correct weight for one. Cheers.

Ferber doesn't recommend his version of cc for babies under (I think) 6 months. certainly not for ten weeks. I'm not against cc, and it eventually worked for us at 8months (oh, the agony of all those sleepless nights) after a failure at 6months.

KAren, 10 weeks is probably too early for controlled crying, but not too early to start good sleep habits - ie for babies to fall asleep on their own, without having to be rocked, sung to, fed, IMO. There is a big difference between allowing your baby to fuss for a few minutes after you leave the room before he falls asleep, and hours of (controlled) crying. I'm no expert, but at 5 weeks old dh and I were exhausted because ds would only sleep with my nipple in his mouth, or on dh's tummy, so we let him cry himself to sleep. The longest he ever cried was 40 mins, and that was in shorter bursts with pauses. I think Ferber describes it as 'crying down' (or it might say that in one of the Gina Ford books). It is awful listening to your baby cry, but if you know there is nothing wrong (and you are really certain about that) then it is okay for him to cry for a while. Lots of babies do - maybe it's their way of winding down / releasing tension. Think of it as allowing him to cry. You may find, like us, that your baby cries more if he's over tired. You may find he settles easier if he's awake for no more that 2 hours. Let me know how you're getting on. .

I've just realised that I sound a bit hard hearted. To justify myself, I just want to tell you that ds sleeps soundly 7-7 every night, has plenty of day time sleep, and all the old ladies at the shops say what a happy chappy he is. I'm not an ogre, honest!

I can see where you're coming from vivie but I do think that 40mins crying to sleep alone at only 10 weeks sounds too long... As well as Ferber not recommending cc below 6 months he also emphasises the need for the parent to keep on going into the room for cuddles and letting the baby know you are there, so they don't get too scared.

But each to their own..as long as they're happy eh!

Thanks for all the advice.
The main problem we have is that as soon as ds is put in his cot during the day the tears start, so I really don't know what else to try to get him to sleep there during the day. It isn't "grizzly" crying but full on bringing the house down. Of course as soon as he's picked up he quiets and almost falls asleep on my shoulder again, then I put him back in the cot and it repeats, repeats, repeats. So yesterday I let him cry and went in after 2min, 5min and 5min saying soft words and on the third time he fell promptly asleep. Is this CC? Some naps took four or five entrances and one took only 1.

However, he still woke up after 30-40mins sleeping and therefore was VVVVV tired by the end of the day (usually gets 4 x 1-1.5hr naps spread across the day). Subsequently we had the best night's sleep (all three of us) with ds sleeping from 8pm to 1am, then up at 4:30am.

I'm definitely not aiming for a full nights sleep, ds still needs two or three feeds throughout the night, but I just wish he would settle in his cot for day time naps. I'm sure his sleep quality would be much better than what he's getting at the moment...

It's so upsetting knowing that I can let him fall asleep for all naps without crying by the "old" method and just upset him terribly with the "new" method.. WHAT CAN I DO?

Hang in there Karen! How was last night? I hope it was quiet. Did you carry on with your 'new' method?

Whether to carry on with this 'controlled crying' is really a very personal decision for you and your dh. We decided that we had to do this because I was just so b*** tired, PND was taking hold and I cannot be a good mum on 3 hours sleep (maybe some can?). I should clarify that 40 mins was the longest ds took to fall asleep, and he didn't cry for all that time and after only a couple of nights he slept much better. I think that by taking action early we avoided a lot of problems later - we have not had to do any kind of controlled crying since and ds sleeps well every night except when he's ill.

The waking up after 30-40 mins is very common. Everyone wakes several times during the night, adults check the clock, listen for strange noises, wrench the duvet back from their partner, and babies likewise check that everything is okay. If they are alright, and they are still tired, they usually fall asleep again. If they are hungry, dirty, uncomfortable - or they need you to breastfeed, rock them, etc back to sleep - they let you know. Sleep goes in cycles (there's lots about this in the Ferber book) and babies often come into a light sleep after 30-45 mins when they may wake up. Our ds used to wake after exactly 40 minutes of a daytime sleep (you could set your watch by him), cry vigorously for a few minutes then conk out again for another 40 mins. If you left your ds he may well settle himself again after a few minutes. I still often hear ds mutter and shift around after 40 mins of his nap but he doesn't usually wake up these days.

I agree that your ds will need night feeds for quite a while yet and that sleeping bags are brilliant.
Good luck and let me know how you're doing.

Thanks Vivie. Really appreciate the support.

Well, we're starting to have fantastic nights (dare I say it) - atleast as fantastic as it can get at this age. Ds now has a 6 or 7pm feed, then bath, about 30-45mins of play and then becomes very sleepy. He goes into his cot around 8ish with either 10-15mins of grizzly to medium crying (or like last night 2mins!) and wakes after about 4 hours - yippee! He is then up a further time and finally about 5:30/6am, after which he goes straight back in the cot, no fuss, and falls asleep to me saying softly "go to sleep for mummy". I used to wake him up for a 9/10pm feed but I just let him sleep through it. Has given me an extra hour in bed (9pm curfew for me!)

The day naps are still another story.. takes about 15-20mins of crying which goes through several stages. He soothes each time I go in, saying the same words as before, especially if I stroke his hair backwards, but as soon as I leave it starts up again. Like yours, 30mins to the second after he does drop off he becomes WIDE awake. Have left him, but the crying grows and he becomes too awake to think of sleep again (or so it seems) so I pick him up after 5mins..

The room isn't dark, just a dull light through the non-blackouted curtains, so that could be a problem. Plus as soon as he drops off his arms jerk and wake him up again.. Your thoughts?

Haven't tried the sleeping bag yet, haven' been organised enough to put him in it!

Hope things are ok with you! and sorry this is so long!

Hi Karen

Just wanted to let you know that I know what you're going through. My DS is 12 weeks and sounds very similar to yours! Cant recommend sleeping bags enough though - we have managed to cut out one middle of the night feed since I started using it, as DS always kicked off the sheets.
All the best.

Hi Karen,
Glad your nights are a better - sleep is everything isn't it? If you get some you can cope with anything, if you don't ..... !
Not sure what to suggest for the short daytime sleeps. Perhaps as he gets used to falling asleep on his own he'll feel better about settling back on his own. You might be surprised! Are you sure he's not hungry? Perhaps if you gave him a quick feed in his bedroom he would feel sleepy again, then you'd know to top him up before nap time the next day.
Our ds didn't wake with the startle reflex. We had him in a 1/2 swaddle tucked firmly into a Moses basket and this seemed to hold him nice and tight until he was big enough for his sleeping bag. He liked to suck on his fists from very early on so we had to leave his hands free. We don't have the room pitch black, partly because we're too idle to get the cutains etc set up properly and partly because we didn't want his to only be able to sleep in a totally dark room, which would make holidays etc difficult. The only other thing I can think of right now is that sometimes babies wake more if they are over tired when they go to bed so maybe if you put your ds to bed at the first sign of tiredness he'd find it easier.
I'm not sure I've been much help here. Hope tonight is restful for you all.

Have you tried having naps outside?

When my dd1 was about 4 months she slept well at night, but daytime naps were terrible, she would not settle at all, slept only in 20 minute bursts and was irritable all day. I tried everything and was desperate as dd1 was screaming with tiredness most of the day. Eventually my mother suggested putting her outside in the garden in a pram, which is what her generation had always done for their children's naps. I was a little reluctant (It was February!) The first time we tried it dd1 slept for 4 hours!! After that she always had all her naps outside. When she grew out of her pram we bought an enormous old style Silver Cross, and she had all naps there until she was 2.5yrs. Dd2 (2yrs 8m) has just stopped napping there, and ds (4 months) just started.

It has really worked for us - I guess it is a combination of being able to rock them back to sleep when they wake after a short time, and the fresh air (well, freshish, we do live in central London!) makes them sleep really well.

It might be worth a try? But just realised, all this of no use if you don't have a garden, (ours is actually more of a yard) though a balcony is fine -- we did that on holiday.