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The MN Mail Column - what we think, and what we plan to do next... part 2

11 replies

whataboutthisone · 18/08/2009 12:56

Firstly, I am a regular but have created a new name for this.

My thoughts about what I know so far:

  1. In a much earlier post there was a discussion about a change in T&Cs and whether they are valid or not. Several years ago I took a company to court for a breach of their T&Cs. Their argument was that they had changed T&Cs and my complaint was therefore no longer valid. However, the judge said that because I had not specifically been asked to accept the new T&Cs, I was entitled to rely on the ones I had accepted and therefore I won my case.
  1. I choose to post on MN in the knowledge that the details I give are probably just obscure enough to anyone I may know in RL who also posts, so that what I say still effectively remains private. However, that doesn't mean that the same could be said of, for instance, my mother, who reads the DM (!) There is probably just enough about my circumstances that would enable her to put 2+2 together. I would like the option to choose whether or not I let my Mum ( or anyone else in RL) in on certain areas of my life, and there is a real possibility that this hack, has taken that choice away from me.
  1. I have never ( and now will never) post asking for advice, but I will also be very careful about offering advice in the future. I, along with many others, occasionally use examples from my life to explain where I am coming from. If I continue to do that, as I said earlier, it is possible that some people would be able to work out who I am. Now, I am not so big-headed as to believe that any advice I offer is worth taking, however, there are many fantastic posters on here who do give amazing and insightful advice based on their own experiences. It would be a real shame if that was to stop because they, like me, do not want to share some of those experiences with the folk they are close to in RL. It would also be a real tragedy if others were prevented from asking for help for the same reasons.

I am very disappointed that any MNer would feel it is acceptable to violate the trust we place in each other on this forum. I do not know who she is. I do not want to know who she is. But I hope she is hanging her head in shame for breaching the trust that has been placed in her by everyone whose words she has stolen to make a few bucks!

HelenMumsnet · 18/08/2009 13:31

Hello everyone.

Just letting you know I'm going to sticky this thread now and take the other one down, so everyone knows where to post.

Thank you all for your patience with us. We know it must be frustrating to wait so long for updates for us but, as StripeySuit has said here, these things do take time to sort out.

I can assure you that everyone at MNHQ is beavering away behind the scenes to sort this out. So please don't take our silence as a lack of concern or a lack of activity on our behalf.

And please do continue to post - we are following the thread and taking all your points on board.

carriemumsnet · 19/08/2009 15:11

Hello all (warning ludicrously long post to follow... get out the popcorn/ gin/sausage rolls and don't start reading unless you have time to spare).

Just back from holidays and have been catching up with everything that's been going on and wanted to give some feedback both on the Daily Mail column and on the topic of deletions.

First off the DM: What I can't do is wade in and start conversations about legal-type stuff with them while key people are still away, but we have finally spoken with them and started negotiations. They were very apologetic for any offence and anxiety they have caused and apologised for not letting us know in advance that the piece was being run in the first place.

They are really keen to continue with the column and we've managed to clarify some key issues for this week's column (and any subsequent ones) :
a) As the title suggests (This week on Mumsnet), it's current/topical discussions from recent weeks they are looking for. They have assured us that they are NOT going to be raking through the archives looking for personal stories. They have also assured us that there will be no threads taken from the Special Needs section or threads about Domestic violence. A quote from an email from their commissioning editor received today:
"It is never our intention to dredge up old stories or to ostracise any of your members. Our aim is to empathise with them and support them by highlighting the debate and issues facing mums today."

b) They have also agreed to change all the names of the folks quoted which will obviously make it significantly more difficult for anyone to then use search to find other posts on Mumsnet.

c) They've also agreed to give us a heads up on what topic they will be covering in advance. Obviously as it's a topical column we're not going to get a heap of advance warning but we should at least be able to check what they're writing about. We're still in discussion about what we could do if we don't approve/ if the topic they are covering is likely to be contentious. But given what they have said about not wanting to ostracise anyone, we're pretty confident we could sort this out. This week's topic, apparently is lunch boxes in the light of the news story about ham sandwiches.

We hope this info will calm some of your anxieties. There does still remain the discussion about whether or not Mumsnet should be associated with the Daily Mail at all/ what we can do if we are still unhappy, but that's a discussion that will have to wait until everyone's back from hols.

In the meantime, given the latest information on what the column will be about and how it will be presented in the future, is it something we could live with? Do let us know (we know you will )

Which leads us not neatly at all into mass deletions.

Hopefully the news that the backroom boys at the DM are not, as we speak, trawling the archives for your most embarrassing posts will allay folks' fears, but for those who have been asking for some policy on deletions, here's a stab at explaining our thoughts:

We are always happy to delete one-off posts when you've realised you've put in an email address or phone number or something else that might identify you in real life. If you report a whole thread to us for the same reason, we're usually happy to delete too - although we may ask you to post on it one more time to let everyone else on the thread know what's happening.

Sometimes, there is a delay between you reporting a post to us and us deleting it (especially if it is late at night/a weekend) but we do try very hard to answer every request we get. If you don't get a reply, do please contact us again at [email protected] - with the best will in the world, things do occasionally slip through the net - and we'll do our best to sort you out.

As far as mass deletions go, we have done mass deletions off our own bat when a persistent poster is revealed to be a troll (eg JudgeFlounce).

But we are reluctant to do mass deletions on request because it does make a nonsense of the boards - even old threads can be a really useful repository of wise Mumnsetters' advice and it's very frustrating to search for something and find a string of posts saying, 'Message withdrawn by poster'.

We have also found, in the past, that when we ask the poster who has requested the mass deletion to report the threads and posts they are truly troubled by, there are often only a handful of posts that really need deleting. It's amazing how many of us have a posting history that contains far more about weaning spoons and zombie plans than we could ever have imagined!

That said, there has been the odd occasion when a poster has felt their own safety was seriously compromised by their past posts - and we have, for that reason, agreed to delete their posting history. There have been others who genuinely feel their mental health is being compromised by posts remaining on the site and in those instances we have also done mass deletions. Again, we don't do this lightly and usually need to consult carefully with each other before starting the deletion process.

We have no wish at all to make anyone's life more difficult, that's absolutely not what we are here for, but equally I think we all want a site full of coherent, useful advice, not threads full of deleted posts. So please be careful and try not to post stuff that's going to compromise you or your identity or that you're going to regret posting later.

If you've read this far, congratulations

Thanks again for your patience,

MNHQ

carriemumsnet · 20/08/2009 12:18

Hi all

Thanks again for the feedback - we are listening and we are taking what you say on board. It's impossible to answer every query but just to come back on a few things/reiterate:

We did not set off to "start a relationship/get into bed with/ partner up etc" with the Daily Mail and were only alerted to the first article when someone reported it to us. We know some folks will never believe this but it's the truth.

In response to Aitch (and others) who have expressed frustration and we quote:

"MNHQ has once-and-for-all exposed the fact that as an organisation it's not going to use their right to Fair Use to prevent our words being lifted and re-printed elsewhere."

As Justine said early on, noone in their right mind wants to start getting legal with the Daily Mail and certainly at the moment with half the team away we just wanted to open communication with them and see if we could get the things that most worried Mumsnetters - namely editorial content and identities - changed.

As I said in my epic post yesterday "there remains the discussion about whether or not Mumsnet should be associated with the Daily Mail at all/ what we can do if we are still unhappy, but that's a discussion that will have to wait until everyone's back from hols" - which will be early Sept. So we're not saying that the conversation is over, just that for the time being, until we're back to full strength, we just wanted to mitigate and address the immediate concerns.

Sorry if we keep repeating ourselves - we just want to let you know that we're not ignoring you/the issue.

Anyways, keep your thoughts coming...even the MNHQ are evil, money grabbing, two timing, no-balls-eejits thoughts...we can take it...

carriemumsnet · 20/08/2009 15:34

Hi there

Still here...but in haste...

For those who think we've been lily-livered on the legal front, all I can say is that having done the legal thing - when forced to - by SWMNBN we have absolutely no desire or resources to return to legal battles if we don't absolutely have to. And we don't have a "legal department"

And what do I think? Well as Justine says lots of companies/websites/PR's would give their eye teeth to be getting free publicity in a national newspaper. Do I think MN and the DM are a great fit - not particularly. But although I don't buy or particularly like the DM - some friends and even - dare I say it in case you firebomb them - members of my family are regular readers and they are not evil BNP voting/mysogynistic racists - well not all the time.

BUT - and please keep reading before you respond to my post. Do I want long standing members - or even short standing members - to be outraged, upset, leave, feel insulted, betrayed etc ? Would I like to make all this ill-feeling, bitterness and anger stop? Hell, yes.

Do I think appearing in the DM affects our status as a social enterprise? No I don't. It's not as if we went to the DM and took out a full page ad (though not sure even that would compromise Social Enterprise status.. but heck let's not worry about that as it won't be happening)

Anyway - apologies again for another long post. If I don't come back for a while I'm not ignoring the thread, but am off for a (possibly tmi, but this is Mumsnet) ovarian scan

HelenMumsnet · 20/08/2009 16:48

Erm, yes, I know she did VVVQV!

carriemumsnet · 20/08/2009 20:58

Hi there

Loathe to post again as don't want to keep stirring when the thread seems a little calmer, but wanted to thank folks for their kind wishes for the scan, they were much appreciated. Thankfully all is well, so huge, nay massive, relief all round here.

Back on the old topic, and in light of speculation, we also wanted to reassure that a) Leah Hardy deregistered from Mumsnet before the column started so she's not around bumping old threads to make them current and b) after the email conversation we had with DM we can pretty much guarantee that they won't be resurrecting threads from before the column started so that, at least, should be one less thing to worry about. But we will definitely try and get a cast iron guarantee on this and get back to you asap. Appreciate this doesn't by any stretch solve all the problems, but hope it's something for now.

Off to try and get my brood to bed.

Thanks again for your kind thoughts

carriemumsnet · 20/08/2009 22:53

Thanks Oopsagainandagain, and no sadly my brood didn't go down well at all, I blame their lousy mother.

The answer to your question is that we have no measures in place and we're not sure we'll ever be able to have any measures in place (which is kind of where this conversation all started), but we'll certainly be talking about it all when we're all back.

Still reeling at mental image of MP's widescreen (thankfully only had a small portable-size screen for mine).

Night all

carriemumsnet · 21/08/2009 11:28

Hi all

Just a warning that today's pretty hectic, so if we miss some comments/appear absent we're not ignoring you. But to come back quickly on a couple of points.

  1. The whole site should know about the DM.

This conversation and the previous one have been stickied at the top of active conversations all week. I know we're planning to discuss changes to T and C's - guess what - when everyone's back, but it's not as if at the moment we're hiding the DM discussion under the carpet.

  1. "Hmm. I note that 'we will discuss what's going to happen when everyone's back from holidays' has turned into 'we think we can get DM to agree to this/that for the future'

Sorry if this came out the wrong way. What I was trying to say and am trying to do is mitigate the things that folks are worried about in the short term, for the next week or so until Justine and everyone else is back, not that this is a done deal and this is how it's going to be full stop.

Finally thanks to all those who have sent messages of support either on here (thanks KingCnut) or via email. We know to some of you it looks like we are evil plotters wilfully out to spoil everyone's Mumsnetting pleasure, and doing deals with every devil available, but we honestly aren't. We just want to all be in the same room (same country would be a start) before we make any decisions/ do anything that might have repercussions for the site. It's not that long to wait - everyone's back after the bank holiday - any chance you could just bear with us till then?

And in the meantime we will - as an interim measure - a) try and talk to the DM about assurances they won't use threads from before the column started and b) try and get a heads up on what the column will be about next week.

We might not be able to get through until Monday, but we will report back.

Sorry, seem to have lost ability to post in less than 1000 words. Thanks for reading this far.

carriemumsnet · 21/08/2009 22:54

Hi all

Signing off for the night but if you want to report a suspicious poster/ possible troll thread, please do and we'll look into it.

Thanks and have a great weekend all.

carriemumsnet · 25/08/2009 15:16

Hi all

And welcome back from hols the newcomers to this thread!

Just noticing that this thread is getting near 1000 posts so wanted to post and clear up a few comments/ queries before part 3 starts.

  1. "PW - MNHQ said that she had re-registered under a different name after the flouncing and has been posting regularly since"

Leah emailed MNHQ a while back to say she had deregistered before the first column appeared and only posted sporadically before that, so not sure where the idea that she's re registered and is posting regularly under a different name came from - certainly not from us and certainly not based on any information we have.

  1. Special Needs

The DM when we were in touch with them last week assured us that they would definitely NOT be using any threads from the special needs section or any threads that involved domestic violence. We hope this offers some reassurance IusedtobePeachy. Justine - once she's back - will no doubt elaborate more on the development of private groups (and we're not talking about excluding folks from useful information/support, just giving people a space where they might feel more secure) so please bear with us on this.

  1. We've been in touch with the DM and discovered that the subject this week is Hellidays - surviving hols with children.

A posse from Mumsnet Towers are off to see Angelina Ballerina Ballet with some very excited dds tonight, but do feel free to keep the comments coming and we'll get back as soon as we can.

Best

MNHQ

carriemumsnet · 25/08/2009 15:33

She emailed us after last week's column appeared to say could we let folks know that she had de regged before the first column appeared. Sounds like a tongue twister, but hope that helps

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