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See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Going on BBC breakfast on Monday a.m to talk about male midwife who thinks women have too many epidurals... your thoughts please

72 replies

carriemumsnet · 12/07/2009 22:20

Hi all
We've been invited on BBC breakfast tomorrow to give Mumsnet's view on this article

We said we thought you might have a few choice words on the subject

Please post your pithy thoughts here tonight, and we'll try and get as many of them across tomorrow am.

Thanks all

MNHQ

OP posts:
SolidGoldBrass · 12/07/2009 23:28

He's a man. He can shut the fuck up about childbirth. Even if he is a qualified midwife. It's not him who is ever going to experience this, so his viewpoint is bullshit.
TBH I would be nearly as contemptuous of a woman who said, pain relief in labour is immoral because she hadn't had any - every birth is different, every fanjo is different for that matter - but a man telling women that pain (of a type he is never going to experience) is good for them and they should embrace it needs a good kick in the cock.

Quattrocento · 12/07/2009 23:28

Feel free to hurt him badly, Carrie.

Then he too can discover the empowerment that pain brings

Tosser

LeninGrad · 12/07/2009 23:30

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

LeninGrad · 12/07/2009 23:35

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

hmc · 12/07/2009 23:36

I've always considered that a bollocks statistic - i.e. an epidural makes you more likely to have forceps / ventouse. Consider this - perhaps you were heading down that route anyway because of a complicated delivery, and it became apparent that after 26 hours of f**king back to back labour where you wanted to die, that an epidural was the right and humane thing to do. Yes I needed assisted delivery and I had an epidural - but I would have needed assisted delivery even without an epidural. I guarantee it.

With my second labour frankly I'd experienced worse period pain. It was a walk in the park. I needed no pain relief at all....but my first labour was something else.

And I am still mad with the muppet midwives who didn't call the lovely, lifesaving, fantastic, demi-god doctor sooner, who as he descended from heaven said something to the effect of "Christ ladies, this woman has suffered enough - call the anaaesthetist"

I guess you could say I feel strongly about this subject

SolidGoldBrass · 12/07/2009 23:54

As it happens, when I was PG I wanted to avoid an epidural (partly due to terror of needles and uneasiness about my spine anyway; have scoliosis, partly due to reading too much feminist fiction about the empoweringness of natural birth (and not enough feminist writing about the reality of unattended births and how many women and babies die from 'routine' complications in birth) and all that). Towards the end of labour I did ask for one, was told it was too late, continued with gas and air and did not, in fact, have any intervention apart from catheter in the last few minute and a voice saying 'Baby might be in distress, we're going to need to operate' which made me go 'No you fucking won;t' and push like mad.
However, no matter how experienced and knowledgabe this bloke may be, there is something fundamentally off-putting about a man extolling the benefits of painful birth. Just like there would be something fundamentally offputting about a female medic singing the praises of circumcising baby boys.

bronze · 13/07/2009 00:00

Part of me agrees what with endorphins etc but I agree with others it is only possible with the right support and care and at the moment the majority of us just don't get it. My best labour (and drug free) I had a lovely midwife who stayed with me the whole time. I think I couldn't have done it without her. My worst I was stressed and so was the one mw who was an only on antenatal ward that just happened to have quite a few labouring women on it.

JudyBlume1019 · 13/07/2009 00:15

My initial reaction to this article was that he is being very condescending, and I do object to him having such opinions, not because of his gender, but because he hasn't had a baby. He is not qualified to be making the sorts of statements he is making because he hasn't had a contraction, or given birth. It is important. I do not believe that someone can really understand what it is like to give birth without actually doing it. I have had three thankfully straightforward labours and quick deliveries and the most important thing I know about having babies is that after a certain point, you do not choose your birth, you can try, but nature decides. Some people are more fortunate than others. I've been lucky, but I absolutely know that if my labours lasted any longer than they did, or if there were complications of any sort, I would not, or should not have hesitated in requesting and accepting any pain relief available. The pain is unimaginable, and regardless of his experience as a midwife, Dr Denis Walsh can not imagine that level of pain. It does not feel natural or beautiful or wonderful. It is bloody awful.

However, he is obviously correct that epiduals are becoming more common, and in my experience of two hospital births and one homebirth, I can see why. The ethos is totally different in a hospital. You are checked and monitored far more, and intervention is the norm, whereas at home you are just encouraged to get on with it.

I think his point that enduring the pain of childbirth being linked to a womans ability to bond with or care for her baby is bollocks, and deeply condescending. However, I do agree that both experiences are primal, the birth of a baby and the caring for a baby are absolutely fundamental to our humanity, regardless of how painful they are. I kind of know what he means. That primal, animalistic act of giving birth is wonderful, amazing, shocking, as is the all encompassing love you feel for the resulting baby.

thumbwitch · 13/07/2009 00:25

OK - how to phrase this...

I did hypnobirthing for the birth of DS. The first thing that I was told is that generations of women have been kept in fear of labour by being told how horrendously painful it is, how hard it is, how the pain is what you must expect. When the body is in a state of fear, it enters "fight or flight" mode and reduces activities that are not seen as essential to survival - this includes giving birth. So, by being fearful, you are working against your body's natural ability to labour effectively. This made sense to me - and a bit of hypnosis helped to reduce my fear of labour pretty effectively.

In the end I was induced at 42 weeks - slow progression - eventual very fast delivery in the observation suite of the Labour Ward (due to slow progression), unattended until the very last couple of minutes. It HURT! But I wasn't scared and I let it happen, didn't try to stop any of it and didn't have anyone interfering with how it was happening. So possibly it hurt less than if I had been more "managed".

I was warned off an epidural because I was induced and therefore it was more likely to involve ventouse/forceps - this I could believe.

I think he has some screwed up ideas - by all means increase the use of hypnobirthing, hydrotherapy etc. but for the love of God, STOP telling women it HAS TO HURT! It just adds to the whole fear load and is TOTALLY counterproductive. Could you please mention that? Ta.

NotPlayingAnyMore · 13/07/2009 01:56

Carrie - having read his presentation, if pain really is for "marking the occasion", please ask him when his next birthday is and where he'll be celebrating it, so I can pop round to kick him in the balls

LeninGrad · 13/07/2009 06:27

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Meglet · 13/07/2009 07:41

Ooooo, its on now!!

largeginandtonic · 13/07/2009 07:45

I see you Carrie...

Good comments, well done. In the face of such muppets too.

muppetgirl · 13/07/2009 07:45

watching...!

AitchTwoOh · 13/07/2009 07:46

well done carrie.

PestoMonster · 13/07/2009 07:47

I saw you too Carrie!!

[excited emoticon]

largeginandtonic · 13/07/2009 07:47

Very tactful with the 'bizzare' comments Carrie. Bloody ridiculous would have covered them too i think

Nice pink top btw

ItsAllaBitNoisy · 13/07/2009 07:49

Well done Carrie. You were outnumbered but got your point across very well.

LibrasBiscuitsOfFortune · 13/07/2009 08:20

Did you call him a numpty? If not, missed opportunity.

GreenMonkies · 13/07/2009 09:01

I missed it!!! Bums,did anyone record it, will it be on youtube/iplayer???

MuppetsMuggle · 13/07/2009 09:57

I missed it!!!

VietnameseCobbler · 13/07/2009 10:00

Youtube?

MrsTittleMouse · 13/07/2009 10:24

I saw this in between sorting out the DDs. I thought that it was a really good discussion (well, what I could hear of it ). The experience of childbirth depends on so many different factors. I was exactly the same woman for both my deliveries, my babies were very similar sizes, and I used the same breathing and relaxation techniques. But for the first I needed much more pain relief as my baby was badly positioned and the labour was much longer and more painful. His stupid "one size fits all" approach just highlights (to me) the fact that he is talking about something that he has absolutely no experience of and that he has no idea.

I agree with everyone else too that the first priority needs to be proper midwife support and that everything else can go from that.

GwarchodwrPlant · 13/07/2009 10:26

Damn I missed it! Is there any way I could watch it again?

GreenMonkies · 13/07/2009 11:51

read and hear it here

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