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See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Policywonk's MN rep at 'Commentariat vs Bloggertariat: who's winning?'

175 replies

GeraldineMumsnet · 19/06/2009 15:14

It's on Monday evening and the panel line-up is: David Aaronovitch (Times commentator), Martin Bright (New Deal of the Mind founder, and blogger), Iain Dale (political blogger and publisher), Mick Fealty (political blogger) and Anne Spackman (Times' comment editor).

Any points you'd like PW to make on your behalf?

OP posts:
policywonk · 23/06/2009 17:29

Sorry. Went out for dinner, drank some wine, late train back (nice 25-minute wait at Vauxhall) and had a small-child-related nocturnal disturbance, so had to have a little nap in front of Wimbledon today.

It was very Westminster-focused - a whole swathe of blogs that aren't about high politics were pretty much ignored. I think there are highly informative specialist blogs that don't fit neatly into the distinctions that were developed by the panel.

There was some four-star willy-waving between Iain Dale (Tory blogger) and David Aaronovitch, who hate each other. (The ostensible issue was the Times's unmasking of Night Jack, but this was obviously just a pretext.) It honestly looked as though there might be a punch-up at one stage. So that was nice. Dale also had a big go at Polly Toynbee and Jackie Ashley, both Guardianistas, for being inconsistent (Anne Spackman took him to task for this, asking why he had chosen to name two women.)

To be honest, I don't think much was said that hadn't been anticipated on here really. There were a few interesting themes though:

Economic model: John Lloyd (who introduced) pointed out that newspapers worldwide are dying or gravely ill, and he blamed the internet quite squarely. (He talked about all the papers that are failing in France, the NYT being propped up by a Mexican entrepreneur, and the Independent being in trouble over here.) He pointed out (as onebat did below) that nobody knows what economic model will replace the current print-based newspaper. Anne Spackman, who runs the Times's online comment section, echoed this. She says that although advertising money has fallen away from printed papers, it hasn't migrated to blogs or to online sites, other than Google (AdWords, I think she meant).

A further consequence of the failure of the print model is that there's no money available for old-style investigative journalism, which is time- and money-consuming. Bloggers are not a substitute for this.

Print journos tend to earn more than bloggers, who often have day jobs; the exception is Guido Fawkes, who is apparently as rich as Croesus. (Aaronovitch responded to this by saying 'In that case I'll tell my lawyers that it might be worth suing him after all.' Aaronovitch reckons he is regularly libelled by Guido's comment-monkeys.)

Do papers still have the power?: when Guido Fawkes wanted to make a big splash with his Damian McBride email, he had to go to the papers. Martin Bright (probably the only panel member you'd want to be stuck in a lift with) said that the truth was a bit more complicated. He pointed out that telly trumps both print and online platforms in terms of reach and power. (Mick Fealty pointed out that although the big story with Obama's campaign was that he raised loads of his money online, most of those funds went to buy television spots.) Bright also said that Downing Street is much more interested in his Spectator blog than in any journalism he ever had printed in the New Statesman. (But I guess nobody in the Labour govt reads New Statesman, do they?)

Unique attributes of blogs: a few people spoke about the 'peer-to-peer' tone of blogs and online comment, as opposed to the me-journo-you-idiot tone of some print comment pieces. Another feature is that bloggers tend not to come from insider Westminster (or other co-opted) circles. This makes them more approachable; their sources tend to be junior-level staff rather than senior officials, and their readers feel confident that bloggers aren't spinning messages handed down by party hierarchies. Blogs also don't have to 'guard' any brand, in the way some paper journalists might have to.

Aaronovitch alluded to male domination of blogs and comment sites, and wondered whether it's related to their lack of civility. He called blogs 'democratic but unreliable, as democracy often is', which I thought was a nice line. Iain Dale said that 85 per cent of his readership is male, but that this 'reflects levels of political participation'. Surely this is bollox? I mean, I know men tend to participate more than women, but not by that sort of differential.

The legal position The print journos are very pissed off at the legal mismatch between print/newspaper journalism, which has to get past stringent legal guidelines, and the current freedom of often-anonymous bloggers and (ahem) talkboard users to say hugely libellous things without being sued. They are particularly exercised (understandably) about the nasty things that are said about them when their articles are discussed online. Aaronovitch said 'accountability, to someone who is posting online, means being able to call someone a cunt'. (I think he gets called a cunt a lot.) Conversely, Mick Fealty reckons that the legal threat hanging over print journos makes them too cautious. Everyone agreed that a big-name blogger is going to get very, very sued sometime soon, at which point the sands will shift a bit.

Julia Hobsbawm is still very upset about the kicking she got on here when her book was published. She said that when the book came out, she went to 'the only online site that it was particularly relevant to' (that's us I think) and that we were being 'mean, nasty and spiteful'. I had been wanting to make a point about the wisdom of crowds, and how sites like MN can help you to refine your thinking and become better informed on the back of other people's wisdom and experience in a way that can't happen in a newspaper column, but at this point I thought better of it.

There were lots of journos in the audience - many more than there had been for the expenses panel, which surprised me. This issue exercises print journos a lot, I realised. Suzanne Moore was there. She has interesting hair.

growingup · 23/06/2009 17:35

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policywonk · 23/06/2009 18:19

Well, I wasn't. But I think some people were. MN does have a bit of a kneejerk 'How very dare she!' response whenever someone writes anything at all about parenting, I think. Even more so if the writer has the temerity to be famous/rich.

growingup · 23/06/2009 19:20

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LupusinaLlamasuit · 23/06/2009 19:30

Suzanne Moore still has interesting hair?

Very interesting PWonk. Spesh the last bit about Us, obviously. Little bit protesting too much from Aaronovitch when journos, um, Get Paid for talking nonsense. And we, um, Don't.

Are they feeling symbolically and literally (in the Indie's case) redundant then?

And what does Frogspawn expect, really? DG today another case in point. There is lots of indignant hysteria. But far more critical intelligence on MN, I feel.

ilovemydogandmrobama · 23/06/2009 19:37

Was anything discussed about foreign bloggers who send on the ground information to print and TV from war zones where otherwise there isn't access? Moral obligations to keep these people safe?

Swedes · 23/06/2009 19:57

Mark Reckons' blog with with links to podcast and comments about the evening. I love the live tweet coming in saying "But David A is a c**t" I've just watched the podcast and honestly don't think Iain Dale was the tittier of him and DA.

policywonk · 23/06/2009 20:04

Suzanne's hair is absolutely full of vibrance and personality. If it were a small child, you'd be cutting down on its sugar intake and wondering whether it needed an early night.

It's difficult, this thing about comment vs rudeness. There's no easy dividing line, is there? I think quite a lot of what gets said on here is too rude to be considered constructive. I s'pose there's no requirement to be constructive, mind. I do think the print journos have a point about anonymity though: it's a lot easier to call, say, Daisy Goodwin a ing of a * when you're posting under a pseudonym. It does rather smack of cowardice and childishness.

Also (and maybe this is just me being a bit soft), when you see someone like JH in person and how she has obviously been very upset by what we said about her, it reinforces the point that these are all real people, even if they are rich and famous and well-connected.

I don't think the journos were feeling intellectually redundant, but I think they are (en masse) worried for their jobs/salaries, and a lot of them are resentful of having to engage with online posters, even when they have no desire to do so. (I was told by someone last night that Polly T absolutely refuses to have anything to do with the exchanges on Comment is Free, because she thinks it's all a load of rubbish.)

Ilove - there was very little mention of anything outside the Westminster bubble, to be honest. The Iranian twitterers were mentioned in passing. There's an interesting discussion to be had about all that, but it wasn't covered last night.

growingup · 23/06/2009 20:06

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policywonk · 23/06/2009 20:07

I think I'd cross the road to avoid both of them tbh, Swedes. Politically I'm more with DA, but he does seem to be permanently enraged.

growingup · 23/06/2009 20:10

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policywonk · 23/06/2009 20:12

gu, yes, her flip-flopping on Brown seems to have lost her a lot of credibility. I don't really mind it myself - it seems to me to reflect a rather female willingness to change your opinion when the facts change - but I suppose people want Certainty from top commentators.

growingup · 23/06/2009 20:13

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monkeytrousers · 23/06/2009 20:42

Aaronovitch alluded to male domination of blogs and comment sites, and wondered whether it's related to their lack of civility. He called blogs 'democratic but unreliable, as democracy often is', which I thought was a nice line. Iain Dale said that 85 per cent of his readership is male, but that this 'reflects levels of political participation'. Surely this is bollox? I mean, I know men tend to participate more than women, but not by that sort of differential.

I think Aaronovich is on to something with the male agression on blogs and forums - ones where they dominate anyway. You can almost smell the testosterone as they all lock horns. Its not pretty. Good way for them to let off steam but it's just a feeding frenzy - anoither way to cme out alpha male. Cock jousts. Totally.

I mentioned male intrasexual competition to to Nick Cohen once and he said 'fuck me is that what me and Chris (hitchens) are up to?'

Wittering · 23/06/2009 20:52

Very interesting to hear some confirmation of the fact that much political blogging is very preponderantly male (both in authorship and readership. I've seen research to that effect based on the US, but it came up in recent threads about the participation of men on Mumsnet, where is was treated with scepticism.

In the US research it was put down partly to the kinds of issues that the blogs focused on, which were seen as male ones. But of course that is likely a n effect as well as a cause of low female involvement.

monkeytrousers · 23/06/2009 21:14

It's just not an enjoyable way for a woman to pass the time - cock jousting without a cock!

LupusinaLlamasuit · 23/06/2009 21:17

I am Neda

This is the kind of thing the Blogosphere is best at, which captures its viral impact...

Swedes · 23/06/2009 21:29

Yes, I thought Daisy G was spot on in her webchat today when she said she put her name to the things she writes, and we are all anon.

I really cringe during most Mumsnet webchats. We can be rigourous without being rude, can't we? In fact being rude means the rigour gets lost in the din of the jeering. It's v ugly and I think it should stop. We want to encourage people to come here don't we?

Do you think it might be a nicer idea if we invited guests to webchat to a Mumsnet panel- with Mumsnetters selected partly by interest group Mumsnetters and partly by ballot?

So for example, today we could have had TikTok, Hunker, Aitch, MorningPaper, Phono and someone else (sorry to anyone I've missed) and another 6 Mumsnetters by ballot. It's impossible for guests to answer all the qs otherwise and sometimes the qs get continously repeated, but asked in slightly different ways. What do you all think?

policywonk · 23/06/2009 21:53

I think that's a good idea, Swedes. The chats have such a lot of potential, but at the moment they don't quite work. Using your method,
we'd have a better chance of getting answers to specific questions.

growingup · 24/06/2009 07:13

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monkeytrousers · 24/06/2009 10:03

"I really cringe during most Mumsnet webchats. We can be rigourous without being rude, can't we? In fact being rude means the rigour gets lost in the din of the jeering. It's v ugly and I think it should stop. We want to encourage people to come here don't we?"

I don;t think there is a problem with numbers is there - of more is better. Problem is you cannot police debates or ask everyone to play by the rules on a forum of tnes of thousands. There will always be one cheater who exploits the system, gets a cheap laugh, and then others will follow.

Isn't this what Arronvich was on about re democracy? The need for a supreme court.

Swedes · 24/06/2009 10:23

Monkeytrousers - Of course you can ask everyone to play by the rules. We all abide by rules in our daily lives and I don't see why Mumsnet should be different.

monkeytrousers · 24/06/2009 10:29

because it's unmoderated. Its all game theory.

Swedes · 24/06/2009 10:33

Monkeytrousers - It may be unmoderated but it can be self-moderated, surely? MT what are your poltiical beliefs, broadly? Feel free not to answer if you would rather not.

Wittering · 24/06/2009 10:42

I think you'd have to make a strong case for analysing chat-forum dynamics in that game-theoretical way wouldn't you? Rather than just asserting it.

I don't think we post here just in rational pursuit of self-interest. What self-interst is there to realise here, except commuity approval? That being the case, I'd imagine that community ethos has some independant explanatory pull, and that individual decisions are partly the consequence of it rather than always the cause.