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MNHQ

Elizabeth Adeney the 66yr old having a baby. The Sun Telegraph want to know what Mumsnetters think

217 replies

carriemumsnet · 16/05/2009 13:00

Hi all

The Sun Tel are doing an article on older mothers based on this story

They're interested to know what folks think the 'cut off' should be in terms of age, or whether there should be no cut off, if you can fund the treatment yourself. And what about men - there's no cut off for them, so should women have the same rights?

They're keen to have feedback in the next hour or so, so let us know what you think

Thanks

MNHQ

OP posts:
juuule · 16/05/2009 18:28

DoNotAnnoy -"Evolutionarily the females role is to nuture. The males role is to spread his genes as far and wide as possible."

Bit of a sweeping statement. Lots of monogamous men not fulfilling nature's directive there then.
And now in the days of egg donation maybe women are catching up on the spreading the genes angle. Older women having babies.

Maybe we are now aiding and abetting the original plan of nature

juuule · 16/05/2009 18:29

MsMaggie - I think that's quite insulting to all the men who are bringing up their children on their own for whatever reason.

DoNotAnnoy · 16/05/2009 18:30

As I say....evolution has not kept up with the Western way of life.

MsMaggieBeauregarde · 16/05/2009 18:34

Well Juuule, it doesn't matter, I don't have to decide it. It happens so rarely, it's not something that should be legislated.

You take offence at common sense. I'm not actively trying to prevent any 66 yr old from conceiving a child (through ivf, or donor eggs or surrogacy) but it isn't a brilliant idea.

If you think it's a fabulous idea to bring a child in to the World 50+ then we'll agree to disagree.

I'm very happy that my mother is still around even though I'm in my late 30s.

juuule · 16/05/2009 18:34

That might be so, DoNotAnnoy, but whether evolution is behind or whatever, I don't think it's a good reason to say 'there is a good reason why nature makes women infertile at a certain age'.

purpleduck · 16/05/2009 18:35

I don't believe for a second that this woman wanted a baby for years, as the article said.... If she did, why didn't she have one? I don't mean to say that its magically that easy for everyone, but she could have had IV YEARS ago. She could have adopted YEARS ago.

Seems to me like she's someone who put it off juuust a little too late.

I agree about the evolutionary differences between men and women reproducing - ie men spreading their seed etc.

Babies need mothers more.

MsMaggieBeauregarde · 16/05/2009 18:36

juuule, you're taking this way to personally.

We humans are mammals, animals, and we will all die. Unlike animals however, we feel pain when our loved ones die and our young take longer to rear.

I don't know how any intelligent person can reasonably claim not to accept this as a valid reason not to enter in to parenthood beyond 50.

Are YOU a much older mum by any chance?

LilianGish · 16/05/2009 18:36

"If we want to bring in the fact that the rapid rate of industrial, scientific and medicical advances have caused evolution to lag behind it is a whole new story."
Isn't that precisely the point - the story is changing.
It's the thin end of the wedge as far as the Daily Mail is concerned - if women can wait as long as men to have their babies we might eventually be able to have true equality between the sexes.
As for how old is too old - it's very difficult to draw a line. My mum's generation thought she was getting on at 30, but its by no means uncommon now for women to have their first child in their 40s so who who knows what our children's generation will think when they get round to it.

DoNotAnnoy · 16/05/2009 18:36

I have my opinion. You have yours. They differ but at the end of the day that is what makes me me and you you.

TBH neither of us a wrong.We just have differing opinions.

Being a biologist....I am fully comfortable saying that evolution does not intend a woman of 66 having a child.

juuule · 16/05/2009 18:38

"You take offence at common sense."

I've not taken offence I just think that some of the arguments against this don't make sense.

And I agree with WWM's posting of
"And to clarify, of course I think 80 too old. I even think 66 is too old. But thats not my decision, its her life and her body. And her baby. "

MsMaggieBeauregarde · 16/05/2009 18:40

Juuule, if it's insulting to Des O'Connor that I (and many others) thought "he'll be dead by the time that child leaves school", then he'll have to suck up that insult.

I can't stop 50+ bringing babies into the World, but the 50+ can't stop people thinking 'ho hum'.

juuule · 16/05/2009 18:41

"I don't know how any intelligent person can reasonably claim not to accept this as a valid reason not to enter in to parenthood beyond 50."

Well given how many older men have been applauded for fathering children at a great age there are probably fewer intelligent people about than we think.

LilianGish · 16/05/2009 18:44

Well said Juuule - the thing is most people are so used to this double standard they don't think anything of it.

juuule · 16/05/2009 18:45

DoNotAnnoy - evolution probably doesn't intend us to do a lot of things but we ignore it anyway.

MsMaggieBeauregarde · 16/05/2009 18:45

Juuule, you're confusing biology with equality then. I don't know.

I don't like it either that women have biological clocks and men don't so much (it isn't fair) and I don't like it.

But it's not something that arguing, debating or negotiating or a PR campaign will change.

The argument against late parenthood would surely be that that parent is closer to the end of their life. How can you not understand that or be so obtuse as to claim it doesn't make sense to you?

This isn't your company's handbook. It's nothing to do with equality or misogynism. It's nature.

Ewe · 16/05/2009 18:46

wwm, of course I would not fall out with her when she reaches a certain age, it is not about the numerical age but the gap in my opinion.

An 80 year old woman with a 14 year old child just sits really uncomfortably with me.

I don't object to a 45 year old woman having a child, whilst I wouldn't do it myself, I do however feel that there needs to be a cut off point for women having IVF. As by your logic it would be acceptable for an 80 year old woman to have a child, as it is her choice?

LilianGish · 16/05/2009 18:48

"I don't like it either that women have biological clocks and men don't so much (it isn't fair) and I don't like it.
But it's not something that arguing, debating or negotiating or a PR campaign will change."
Isn't that exactly what this woman has done? And that's what some people don't like - she's cheated the system!

juuule · 16/05/2009 18:48

"The argument against late parenthood would surely be that that parent is closer to the end of their life."

But none of us know how close to the end of our lives we are.

MsMaggieBeauregarde · 16/05/2009 18:50

Juuuule Can I refer you back to an inconveniennt truth, which is that mothers are the ones left holding the baby. Two to tango and the father may or may not be significant.

I can't believe how personally you are taking this!!

I was happy for SJP recently. She is only 44. Good for her, but she'll still be around in 30 yrs time, or at least she is statistically likely to be.

What age were you when you had your children?

caramelwaffle · 16/05/2009 18:51

40 - to concieve with medical intervention

Unlimited - to concieve naturally

60 - to adopt (if couple and one partner is under 55)

55 - to foster/adopt if single

juuule · 16/05/2009 18:53

"which is that mothers are the ones left holding the baby. Two to tango and the father may or may not be significant."

Not necessarilly. You seem to be building your whole argument on this. Were you left holding the baby and resent that?

And once again I am not taking this personally. I just want to make sense of some of the arguments.

MsMaggieBeauregarde · 16/05/2009 18:53

"The argument against late parenthood would surely be that that parent is closer to the end of their life."

But none of us know how close to the end of our lives we are.

The chances of a 40 yr old still being around in 25 yrs time are significantly higher than a 55 yr saying the same thing.

I could have been hit by a bus, but I'm more likely to die at about 76 of old age

Worldsworstmummy · 16/05/2009 18:56

I don't like it. No. 80 is in my personal opinion ridiculously old, as I said, but I cannot find any logical reason to legislate against it. I think these cases of very old mothers are so few and far between, we can only hope she proves to be a marvellous mum who gives her child the best kind of childhood possible.

as mentioned earlier, women used to be thought well over the hill by having babies in their thirties, then it got pushed to 40s, who is to say that in ten years time we might have had a shift of opinion that says 50s is okay? increased health, longevity and technology points to that being possible.

Evolution was designed over hundreds of thousands of years to deal with an extremely hostile environment and exceedingly low life expectancy. We are now in unknown territory.

For example, our teeth were designed to last 40 years max (according to my dentist) because for millennia that was the limits of life expectancy.

We already mess with biology all over the place, this is just one more. And to be honest, if we are going to be unrigorous in this, I'd rather a woman desperate for a baby who finally gets the technology to achieve it, perhaps for infertility issues previously untreatable, than some other medical procedures funded by the NHS.

Ewe · 16/05/2009 18:59

It is legislated for already though isn't it? Hence why she had to go abroad for it?

I just can't understand why she would leave it so late.

Ewe · 16/05/2009 19:02

NICE guidelines are maximum maternal age of 39, obviously this is a recommendation as opposed to a law though.

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