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Our comments, in MN books, who owns our collective wisdom?

18 replies

Wotzy · 28/01/2009 22:28

Who owns our comments?

We can request them to be removed from this forum, but not in print. In posting we give consent for them to be on MN on the web, but does that extend to publication in a book.

I am not looking for a fight, it is a serious question, who owns the copyright to our words, if they are in publication? Was there consent to have our collective words printed in a book?

JustineMumsnet · 29/01/2009 11:04

Hello Wotzy and everyone - thanks for raising this - we always happy to clarify these things.

First we're not trying to hide anything - it's pretty much convention for disclaimers/copyright/ advertising notices to be the bottom links on websites I think and it's also pretty standard for sites to own copyright over your posts but we have no problem with making it more prominent on the join MN page if folk would like us to.

The reason we are doing the books is threefold:

  1. To take all the brilliant and funny advice that gets posted on here every day and to sort it and put it in a compact and portable form. We think there's really something in the pooling of knowledge and experience so that you get a collective wisdom and importantly the idea that there's no one right way of doing things. If the MN books are going to have one overriding principle then it's just that: "There's more than one way to skin a cat". In short we thought we could create some fabulous and really helpful books. Books that are modern, democratic, funny and that you can be proud of owning because of all those reasons. A parenting manual you can leave on your coffee table and not be embarrassed about.
  1. To spread the word about MN because we think it's useful - and folks should know about it.
  1. To make some dosh. We need cash to pay for the site as we don't charge for access (and don't want to). We have lots of costs now - fancy servers, people, office, shed, Morning Papers exorbitant round up fee, not to mention sausage rolls. Yes we have advertising but we are quite restricted about what advertising we'll take and by whom - we probably turn down as much as we take. We reject a lot of companies and formats - SMA, Milupa, Nestle, Macdonalds have all waved big cheques in front of us in the last year or so - cheques that most other parenting sites would snaffle up. We did not and we're quite happy not to because merciless pursuit of profits is not what we're about (we didn't earn a salary for the first 5 or so years of MN for goodness sake) but it means that if you want a site that runs well we have to be smart about how we fund it.

Bear in mind also that not surprisingly it's tough out there in the advertising market world and probably going to get tougher - we were very much hoping that one big putative ad campaign was going to tide us over for the next little while but it's just been pulled. Blooming Marvellous has gone into administration owing us a fair bit of cash - if we are to avoid the pitfalls of being entirely reliant on advertising which is I gather very cyclical, then we need to have some other strings to our bow.

With regard to your point about it being different when your words are in a book than being on a screen well we can kind of see your point - but folks do post freely and your information is easily accessible and searchable to a huge audience via MN and also Google, a much bigger audience that the one for MN books. But I suppose there is a certain element of trust needed that we won't twist your words or shame or sensationalise. You have to make that call yourself of course about the type of people we are and if you think for one moment that we might, then you absolutely shouldn't risk posting. All I can say is that our aim has been to create a brilliant resource for parents - as MN is - based on the principle of collective, rather than expert wisdom. I really think we've achieved that and that MP has compiled the first book with complete integrity to the spirit of MN (and buy extension to it's members).

It should be out any day now in the shops, so you'll have a chance to see and hopefully feel a bit less cross/ concerned.

As said we are happy to make the copyright notice more prominent if people would be happier with that.

Best,
MNHQ

JustineMumsnet · 29/01/2009 11:29

That's interesting Crumpet - will look at that - seems a better way of doing it doesn't it?

JustineMumsnet · 29/01/2009 11:31

Fio - the opt out caused so much work and confusion at HQ (name changes etc) last time that we decided not to. Also many people who asked to opt out, told us afterwards that they'd wished they hadn't...

JustineMumsnet · 29/01/2009 11:34

The whole purpose of the site really isn't to make money Wotzy - the whole purpose of the site is to make parents' lives easier by pooling info - we need to make some money to be able to run it, is all.

We are fortunate enough not to have shareholders or owners baying for profits. In fact we have the opposite - we have our members (and ourselves for that matter) baying for restraint!

JustineMumsnet · 29/01/2009 11:35

And yes we can flag up the copyright issue on the join page - give us a wee while as there are big things afoot in the shed right now.

JustineMumsnet · 29/01/2009 13:05

Few more questions:

Threadworm - Sorry yes, to be clear, we'd love to make lots of profits but it isn't the primary purpose of MN - hence why we've not made too many over the years I s'pose. If being very profitable is compatible with running a great community website (with an ethical advertising policy) though, then whoopee.

KingCanuteIAm - we use the boards as they are at the time of writing - the Toddler book was delivered to the publisher in Sept, so obviously if you have subsequently withdrawn posts that were written before then, they might be in the book. We don't use deleted or withdrawn quotes once they are withdrawn though, if that makes any sense.

Almedia - some of the quotes are attributed - the ones that are pulled out of the text. Most are not though - they are written in to the narrative. That's why it's difficult to provide a definitive list of who's been quoted and who hasn't. (Equally you can probably get away with saying you are if you want to).

JustineMumsnet · 29/01/2009 14:00

It should indeed Threadworm - thanks - we'll change.

Fio you are in at least once that I remember - at the beginning of the SN chapter. Your quote is:
"It would have been nice to know we were not alone."
Don't recall any others but could be wrong.

I hope that's ok, as said we were not looking to use the very personal quotes, more the ones that summarize a general view plus the very funny. I'd be surprised if anyone felt compromised. I really hope not.

JustineMumsnet · 29/01/2009 14:22

Yes you are right Swedes - I think we just nicked it from somewhere else eons ago (possibly contented baby ).

JustineMumsnet · 29/01/2009 14:36

Out of interest here is a copy of the Foreword which tries to set out a bit the general thinking/philosophy behind the series:
(sorry for length)

Foreword
One afternoon back in 2000, a friend called me for some advice. She was six months pregnant and had been suffering from palpitations. Had I experienced them too? She asked anxiously. It shames me now to admit it, but I ruthlessly told her that I would only answer her question if she posted it on the bulletin board of the website I had started a few months earlier.

After all, we needed all the users we could get: until that point, the bulletin board had been populated almost exclusively by me and by Carrie ? a friend from ante-natal class and co-founder of Mumsnet ? and often by just one of us, switching between nicknames to maintain the appearance of a conversation. Me: ?What do you do if your child will only eat jelly?? Me Too: ?Have you tried carrot jelly??

On this occasion, however, something different happened. By the time I had hurriedly logged on to reply to my friend?s query, someone else ? a real, actual person! ? had beaten me to it. And in that instant I knew that Mumsnet was coming to life.

Since then it has blossomed into one of Britain?s ? perhaps the world?s ? most extraordinary online communities. A tad hyperbolic maybe but the Sunday Telegraph called Mumsnet ?an internet phenomenon?, and The Times describes it as ?the country?s most popular meeting point for parents?.

It?s true that the sheer scale and energy of Mumsnet still strikes me almost every time I log on: the site now notches up a million visits a month and more than 20,000 postings every day on anything and everything from the advisability of using pull-up nappies to the acceptability of wearing socks with Crocs. As I write, Mumsnetters are discussing amongst many other things: the purpose of school; cantaloupe melons; how to remove mould from a wall; Jonathan Coe; petrol prices; hen party ideas that aren?t rude; Gordon Brown?s latest speech on social mobility; how to stop chickens coming through the cat flap; home births; Mooncups; ugly blokes who are strangely attractive; ugly women who are strangely beautiful; vasectomy reversals; fake tans; Citroen Xsara Picassos; boys? names to go with Jasper and things to do in Dorking.

But Mumsnet is about much more than sheer numbers. What makes it special is the intelligence, compassion and, perhaps most important, wit of its users. There was the time, for example, when we were facing legal action from a certain rather doctrinaire parenting guru and were forced to take the drastic step of banning all mention of her on our discussion boards. Within minutes of our announcement Mumsnetters had conceived a new Potter-inspired acronym ? SWMNBN (She Who Must Not Be Named) ? and that is how Gina Ford has been referred to ever since.

And this army of bolshy, brilliant parents (yes, there are quite a few dads, despite the name) can be powerful too. Just look at what happened to Waitrose Baby Bottom Butter once Mumsnetters discovered it worked wonders on their wrinkles (don?t ask me how). Shortages were reported up and down the country and jars of the £2.49 cream were going on Ebay for £15 and more.

All of which may leave you wondering why you are reading this book, and are not sitting in front of a screen chewing the fat. And it?s true that to feel the full Mumsnet experience you need to log on and plunge in. But a while ago it occurred to us that, without us ever planning it that way, Mumsnet Talk had turned into the most amazing archive of parenting wisdom. Whereas the child-rearing manuals offered you the wisdom of a single Leach or Stoppard, Mumsnet could bring you the collected wisdom of hundreds of thousands of parents.

Just as Wikipedia has rendered almost obsolete the Encyclopaedia Britannica, so we wondered if there was a way to capture the wisdom of this remarkable crowd.

We thought a Mumsnet parenting manual might be different from its competition in another way too. Whisper it quietly, but if Mumsnet is such fun to read that some of its members begged us to ban them from it because they were spending too much of their lives on the boards, might it not be possible for a parenting book to be a good read too? Even with a thread on the grisliest of subjects, it is not unusual to find yourself chuckling over the keyboard. One member captured the wonderfully batty serendipity of the site recently: ?You know, you start a thread about vaginal discharge and within a few posts you fi nd yourself recommending a reasonably priced shed or telling all about the little hotel you stayed at in the Cotswolds.?

At the same time we realised that long sequences of internet posts, however brilliant, can die when sandwiched between hard covers. So these books are not simply edited extracts from the Mumsnet?s boards but instead they are lovingly crafted guides, distilled from the collected wisdom of our members.

And if traditional parenting manuals purport to reveal ?the right way? to bring up a child, our firm starting point is that there isn?t one right way ? most of the time ? to do the parenting thing. If there were a Mumsnet philosophy it would be something along the lines of ?There?s more than one way to skin a cat?, so read this as a book of optimistic suggestions, rather than as a user?s manual. What we provide is a range of options compiled from the hard-won know-how of what has worked for thousands of others: somewhere in here will be answers that work for you. Fittingly, this first of our guides is written by a brilliant Mumsnetter best known for her dramatic cameo in a previous challenge to the unquestioned authority of the parenting gurus. She it was who, with tongue firmly in cheek, mischievously described a certain childcare expert as someone who ?straps babies to rockets and fires them into southern Lebanon?. The gag sparked a rather unseemly legal battle, but to SWMNBN we should offer fulsome thanks for bringing Lucy Nicholls to our attention, and, ultimately, for bringing you this book. A book, it has to be said, a few thought unlikely to materialise. As one Mumsnetter scoffed when we floated the idea of the guides, ?We could never write a book. We never agree on anything!?

Justine Roberts (Co-Founder, Mumsnet.com)

P.S. Mumsnetters, as you?ll see, write under an array of weird and wonderful nicknames ? VoluptuaGoodshag isn?t really called VoluptuaGoodshag in real life. At least as far as we know he/she isn?t.

JustineMumsnet · 29/01/2009 14:43

No Rachel's here - she just wasn't at the beginning. She joined about a year and a half in. (She was in part of our antenatal group, though, which is probably why you're confused). She looks after reviews and books for us.

JustineMumsnet · 29/01/2009 20:03

I don't know where those posts of gone tbh will ask Tech when he next mails me about his dieting regime.

Tamarto let's put it this way - this has been a v useful discussion as it has highlighted that our old and slightly stolen copyright statement probably needs a revamp!

Tinker no I wasn't croppy - think bells was croppy irrr...

JustineMumsnet · 29/01/2009 20:04

LadyMuck I made it all up anyway . (though i do have twins and they are now shockingly old)

JustineMumsnet · 29/01/2009 20:06

Duh! have gone, not of gone. (Am having Prosecco at the Towers as it's re-launch night) (shhh! it's YetMoreTech's big secret )

JustineMumsnet · 29/01/2009 20:08

Erm... not since college.

JustineMumsnet · 29/01/2009 20:17

Well it's tricky because a lot of quotes are not attributed and that dumbwit MP forgot to make a note of them. But you could pop into Waterstones, flick through a copy, laugh extremely loudly so as to attract the attention of other shoppers, put it incredibly prominently on top of Miriam Stoppard and order a few copies from the man at the desk before rushing home to review it very favourably on Amazon?

JustineMumsnet · 29/01/2009 20:18

QS - I don't think so and even if you were we weren't planning on suing.

JustineMumsnet · 29/01/2009 20:20

Oh I see BabyPringle, well yes one would hope so... though we once thought that before and were unpleasantly surprised...

JustineMumsnet · 29/01/2009 21:29

Oops

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