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Dear MNHQ, I didn't see all the problems kick off over poor Revjustabout...

19 replies

georgimama · 20/01/2009 12:38

but I would be grateful if you could tell me that you have at least given serious consideration to banning the posters who were harrassing her.

Thank you.

JustineMumsnet · 20/01/2009 14:07

Hello all,
Here's what we think:

  1. The revjustabout is not a hairy trucker (nor is she a reverend actually but a deacon as she has said). We posted this some time ago as it happens but clearly folks missed it/ didn't believe us.
  1. If you suspect troll-like goings on MNetters should do one of two things:

a) give poster benefit of the doubt - see our troll policy

b) report suspicions to us so we can look into it.

Otherwise you risk being very unfair if/when their suspicions prove to be unfounded, as was the case in this case.

  1. As a rule we tend to discourage folks setting themselves as experts in any field - that's not to say we don't have lots them and obviously we and you really appreciate all their fabulous advice eg Tiktok, Mears, Mars, Flowerybeanbag - but they don't wear their expertise on their sleeves - Mars isn't Marsthesuperdoula for instance she is Mumsnetter Mars first, who happens to know a lot about birth. This feels the right way to go in our view - it's in line with the MN's general philosophy that all posters are equal and no-one has any authority over anyone else. And names do matter in that regard.

One of the reasons certain posters were suspicious of the Rev in the first place for example was because she was broadcasting her Reverendness. So we (me and the Rev) agreed that a name change was a good idea to help move things on. (Though clearly we might have to have a few more thousand posts before we get to the moving on from this thread stage, given it's nature.)

So to summarise we think on board troll hunting of this kind is a mistake - it is specifically against our policy because it really is deeply unpleasant I'd imagine being on the wrong end of it if you are not in fact a troll. (If you are a troll you probably enjoy it!) So please report any suspicions you have rather than posting about them - we promise to look into it.

Cheers,
MNHQ

JustineMumsnet · 20/01/2009 14:46

To clarify MNHQ did not receive any complaints about Revjustabout's actions or posts - but some folk (not PPH as she says) did write in to say they were worried that she was not a Rev and therefore claiming "qualifications/expertise" under false pretences.

At the time we told them we had no reason to believe this was the case and with further investigation we absolutely believe the Rev is a deacon or rev or priest or verger (please delete as applicable).

We also deleted a number of posts which suggested she was a fake/troll from the Gaza thread.

JustineMumsnet · 20/01/2009 18:27

Hello all,
We've had a handful of mails suggesting we're shameful, weak and the like, so maybe best to respond here to clarify and save our weary fingers.

We did not suggest the Rev changed her name because of the personal attacks on her but because we are uneasy at anyone setting themselves up as an expert on MN in a way that suggests it official/sanctioned by us.

As we've explained some posters setting themselves up as official MN experts doesn't sit particularly well with our philosophy. The Rev had talked about Mumsnet as her ministry and she undoubtedly gives great support and advice and we very much trust she will continue to do so, but we don't want it to seem like we at HQ have appointed her as chief spiritual adviser or anything like that. After all, we're not Bishops!

We specifically discussed waiting a few weeks before name-changing, so it didn't seem like it was in response to the questioning of her validity. She agreed that dropping the Rev after a suitable gap was a sensible plan when we first mooted it. I guess she had a lot to get off her chest however (understandably) and couldn't wait. And we can see why that it looks like we're caving a bit but whilst the name-change is obviously related it's not a direct consequence of this. The direct consequence was deleting the offending posts and re-iterating our troll policy.

We hope that makes sense.
Best,
MNHQ (aka shameful weaklings )

JustineMumsnet · 20/01/2009 19:11

Hi Nantucket,
As I said in my post the events are "obviously related" because it made us think about things, but they are not causal. If we'd thought about it/ looked closely at certain parts of the site before or after we might have suggested it earlier or before. I'm afraid we don't follow the goings on on MN religiously we tend to swerve violently from situation to situation, because we've little time for anything else. So when something like this occurs it brings the whole sitch to our attention.

And as I've said, we had a long and very friendly discussion with the rev about what had occurred whether she was ok (there was anything we could do re her own privacy and best next steps.

JustineMumsnet · 20/01/2009 19:13

No I don't think it is Nantucket - as we've tried to explain, we love expertise - but we don't have official experts. It's against our philosophy of all posters being equal.

JustineMumsnet · 20/01/2009 22:02

Ok sorry for delay - putting kids to bed and all - seems we need to clarify a few more things:

First to the charge that MNHQ are Moldies! viz:
"And it is wierd that this kind of PR mishap keeps happening when there seems to be some kind of white fungal element to things. I don't know if it's accidental - MNHQ are embarrassed and so keep being cack-handed - or whether they are actually on Mouldies. But it is starting to really piss me off."

Well many moldies were/are in many cases Mumsnetters too - it is true we're trying to be fair all MN members - not just MNetters who aren't Moldies. I can't tell you how hard it is, actually. How often we've sat on our hands when our instinct has been during the whole sorry, painful, time-consuming mess of Moldiegate to turn round and say - as many on MN have - well sod off then, to the Moldie crowd. But that would be hypocritical and therefore low of us. We can't on the one hand, say we are fine with folks leaving/ creating a new board and on the other bear ill-will for them so doing - even if it has caused a lot of pain.

We've ended up pretty much peeing everyone off I guess. All I can say is we try to be fair and to treat each complaint on it's merits and without regard to who (whom?) the complaint is about. (Unless it's Hughjarss) You might think we've made a "PR" hash of it, but we're not trying for PR here, we are trying to be fair.

Bear in mind also that we do "know" most of those who appear to be Moldies in the sense that they've posted on MN for some time and we know they're well-meaning folk, not meanies, as a rule. So if you extrapolate from that, those who raised concerns with us (and some did in a proper way off board) had real concerns about the Justa, and weren't just being vindictive, so of course (though we strongly suspected they were mistaken and told them so at the time) we had a duty to check out their suspicion - we do say in our troll policy that if you report your suspicions we'll take them seriously. You would all, I suspect, expect us to do the same if you had a genuine concern that someone was misleading others on the boards. But we deleted the posts that suggested Revjusta was not who she said she was, first.

We did not really doubt Revjusta but we've been doing this long enough to know that the strangest things can happen on the internet, so er checked a few basic things about her from readily available sources and those she herself had volunteered, so we could say with certainty that these accusations against her were unfounded.

With regard to Revjusta losing the Rev from her name I reiterate our position here:

Having some posters acting in a professional capacity doesn't sit particularly well with our philosophy. Revjusta had talked about Mumsnet as her ministry - she undoubtedly gives great support and advice and we very much trust she will continue to do so - but we don't want it to seem like we at HQ have appointed her as chief spiritual adviser or anything like that. After all, we're not Bishops and frankly have no authority whatsoever in spiritual matters! It's a bit like the disclaimers that we have at the top of some of the boards (the ones that say something like we are not experts in this matter and have no way of verifying that the info you get on MN is correct so this is no substitute for seeking professional advice type of thing) - the fact that Revjusta has a Rev sort of means she needs a disclaimer too (and that would have meant a v long nickname).

So we mooted a name change as part of a wider conversation about her welfare during this whole affair - and she agreed it was a good plan. (She has incidentally apologised to us for her thread title and post, which somewhat implies that we de-frocked her whilst she was kicking and screaming! But understandably, as I've said, she was reeling a bit from being doubted by folk.)

We also specifically discussed waiting a few weeks before she name-changed, so it didn't seem like it was in response to the questioning of her validity - which of course was not something we wanted folk to think.

Yes it was unfortunate timing because understandably it looks like the unfounded attacks have had some consequence. Sadly that was out of our hands.

As to the banning issue, we don't think anyone deserves to be banned over this. People are forever wrongly suspecting others of being trolls (and sometimes rightly suspecting them). What this has done is serve to remind folks, we hope, why we discourage this kind of public outing of people - put it simply you might be wrong - in which case it's unpleasant and unkind. We reiterate our troll policy and urge you to contact MN with any concerns (as we say we promise to take any concerns seriously). We will continue to delete any posts and threads "outing" others as and when they are reported/ we see them.

What we would say though, is this: It is very clear is that the sudden appearance of a group of known Moldie Members on a MN thread, particularly if they've not been around much and have a common strong opinion will always be liable to make folks suspicious that it's at best something that's been pre-discussed on Moldiesand at worst an orchestrated attack. This is a natural consequence of some Mumsnetters being known to use another closed board and something that folk should bear in mind if they are keen to avoid ill-feeling/ further upset.

MNHQ

JustineMumsnet · 20/01/2009 22:26

Re the names issue - it's when someone becomes perceived as the MN house that I think we need to look at names.

A long time ago we were host to a poster called JudgeFlounce who pretended to be a Welsh female barrister and liberally dispensed legal advice. So much so that folks would call for JudgeFlounce to coem and help them out with their legal problems. He turned out to be a psychiatrist.

I think all those who remember him will perhaps have more understanding of where we're coming from?

Incidentally it was PPH iirr who uncovered JudgeFlounce so maybe that explains something too.

Benny and Joon,
There is a line obviously - depends on your definition of persistent I suppose - in general we always give a warning to folk before banning them for breaking the rules (unless they're obvious maniacs that is).

JustineMumsnet · 20/01/2009 22:38

Oi Richard Dawkins - if you're planning to set yourself up as MN's ethological expert, we'll have to ask you to name change...

JustineMumsnet · 20/01/2009 22:40

LadyMuck I was pointing out that those who doubted Revjusta thought of her as a JudgeFlounce - not suggesting she was akin in any way.

JustineMumsnet · 20/01/2009 23:06

LadyMuck I think trusting in someone for spiritual advice is probably (if anything) an even greater trust than trusting someone for legal advice - after all we all know what lawyers are like
But we might have to agree to differ I suppose...

JustineMumsnet · 20/01/2009 23:11

HerIllustriousEminenceOnebat the conversation re name change was much more on the lines of a two way one i.e. I wonder why folks are so suspicious of you - could it be something to do with the fact that they think you are carving out an official role - a la Judge Flounce - one way to counter this kind of unpleasant suspicion might be to drop rev from your name, which is kinda counter to MN philosophy anyway? OK let's do that. Ok but let's wait a bit so it doesn't look like you're conceding anything...

does that make any more sense to you?

JustineMumsnet · 20/01/2009 23:26

BUT FGS JUSTINE, IT HAS BEEN PROVEN THAT SHE IS A REV!

After which point, it is utterly irrelevant what andy other trolls have done. And incumbent upon you, surely, to say to the Rev 'thanks for that, sure you understand, Judge Flounce and all". And to the rest of us, 'we are delighted to confrim that the rev is a rev. We will not hear of any furhter attacks on her, particularly any which involve her private life'.

Which is, Onebat, as far as we're concerned EXACTLY what we have done. In fact we went further than that - we deleted the attacks before we'd finally established things to the best of our ability - innocent until proven guilty etc etc.

This further discussion is picking over the detail of what has happened to get us here. I'm responding and trying to explain what I believe others' motivations were. But perhaps I should give up now as it's clearly not helping, and at the end of the day others can speak for themselves if they wish - just trying to paint a full and fair picture.

JustineMumsnet · 20/01/2009 23:31

Ingles2 I think there is a subtle difference. We do not discourage expertise - look at what Tiktok, Mars etc do all the time. We discourage the setting up of official roles. We would object even if it were Tiktok who called herself BreastfeedingcounsellorTiktok and I can't think of anyone more qualified for that role.
It's about titles and position and all posters being equal. But I admit it's not an easy distinction.

JustineMumsnet · 20/01/2009 23:36

But Onebat,

Established the rev's credentials
Deleted the offending posts
Said we disapprove of public outing threads
Warned against the dangers of Moldie raids

We don't agree with you that further sanctions are appropriate - we've also stated that pretty clearly.

If we banned everyone who outed a troll (and turned out to be mistaken) we'd lose a lot of Mnetters.

JustineMumsnet · 20/01/2009 23:56

"By Nantucket on Tue 20-Jan-09 23:39:51
Yeah, but you haven't just done that Justine, you have also asked Rev to change her name, as you have said this may cause issues. Issues which weren't there before the attacks, and which therefore makes it look like she has been doing something inappropriate and the attacks had a legitimate basis."

...Yes we take your point (as we have a few times now) but that would have been avoided if she had name-changed later rather than sooner. What more can we say?

"This 'we talked about why she may have caused such controversery' line is the most suspect of your arguemnts I have to say, that is exactly what all the analogies about focusing on the victims have been saying, and you have stated that is what you did."

...We talked about it like grown ups - she's a vicar for goodness sake - we were trying to see the other point of view.

"Rev didn't do anything, some posters had their own nasty agendas. You are confusing the two here I think, to dangerous effect."

...I don't agree that a nasty agenda was the main motive for most (though concede that I can see why some would think that) - I genuinely think that they thought they were on to a troll.

"Really I think your reasoning on this is muddled and inconsistent, and unfortunately that has resulted in looking like a condonment of bullying."

...That's a shame because we don't condone bullying obviously. As said we try to be fair minded and treat every case on an individual basis - No doubt we're going to make wrong calls and some folk will always disagree on some policy. The main thing is that you understand that our motives are to try to give everyone a fair and equal shout.

Night all,
MNHQ

JustineMumsnet · 20/01/2009 23:57

Without a doubt, Solidgold.

JustineMumsnet · 21/01/2009 00:05

Nantucket - once again - the message was not meant to be delivered at this time. Clearly it gives entirely the wrong impression.

But we stand by the policy that I think lots of others agree with. We think that in general a bad idea to have posters who could be misconstrued as experts or professionals from their nickname. It is against the spirit of all posters being equal and therefore against the ethos of the site.

And with that I'm definitely and finally off for the night

JustineMumsnet · 21/01/2009 00:43

PrincessPeaHead is MN's chief royalty adviser
Enid has a working brief on Malory Towers plot lines.

Erm, no - never met em, never spoken to them. Might have deleted em once in a while.

Sorry you're so suspicious. I think this is to some extent a reflection of how much of a divide has grown between the two sides (moldies v mnet). No one who saw the Moldies posts for years honestly would think this badly of the Moldies as a group. Back me up on this other oldie non-moldie Mnetters please? They were a nice enough bunch.

Ok what happened on the Gaza thread wasn't nice but we had a few emails too and their concerns were genuine - I have it on v good authority - completely and utterly groundless of course, but genuine.

It would actually be nice if one or two of the ones who went public could manage a sorry to Revjustabout.

JustineMumsnet · 21/01/2009 01:02

Well I suspect it had been discussed on Moldies, Firepile and they'd worked themselves in a frenzy of suspicion - doesn't mean they didn't genuinely believe in their suspicions though - ie deluded rather than malicious.

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