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[CatherineMumsnet]

The fact that Lothian buses have decided to ban prams on their buses if they are busy. See here

Gosh it was a while ago, but yes I think so. So long ago I smoked and their cigarette machine was a drawer.

Expat - my friends Dh was "fae Muirhouse"
Lovely part of town aint it?
He entertains us from time to time with his authentic Ned impersonation.

Oh, he must have known our downstairs neighbour, Ted the Ned, we called him.

I don't know which was worse, his drunken arguments with his girlfriend or his drunken karoke.

Oops forgot why i was on here
As I understand it the decision to ban prams was made after a poor wee baby in a pram had its legs broken after a bus driver braked too hard.
SO the bus company is trying to cover its own arse.
Prams SHOULD be allowed on, on the well advertised condition that it is at their own risk.
And, of course on the condition that they make way for a wheelchair.
Arguing that space is an issue doesnt make sense. What about really fat people, are they going to be told they cant board a bus either?
Or all those backpack laden tourists?

And the walls are like paper as well expat.
I can just hear the fond nostalgia in your voice

That's interesting, MO. There clearly are safety issues about transporting children who are not strapped in, but again, that extends way beyond traditional prams, and so misses the point. It sounds like an ill-considered, knee-jerk reaction to me

Yes i think so too ABO.

Thank you Aitch.

on a very basic level, this cotravienes the 'social model of disablioty' which is the current PC thinking on the politics.

I don't know what the exact legal situation is, but in London there are notices up saying that the driver can refuse to let unfolded prams on the bus if there isn't enough space. He can also drive past single people in their 20's if there isn't enough space. It is however more likely that there will be a space for a single person in their 20's than a pram on a crowed space.

I think you also have to ask how often people are refused access to a bus and at what times of day. If it is only in the rush hour then thats not a huge problem. If people living in rural areas are not able to access public transport that is a problem.

not "on a crowed space", should be "on a crowded bus".

it doesn't contravene the social model of disability if the reason it's been introduced is because people with big prams have refused to get off the bus (which is the most sensible reason I can imagine for it being introduced, and given past threads on here where people have had the right hump at being asked to move for a disabled person is something I can certainly believe happens).

sorry MT i don't understand how it contravenes the 'social model' either. what were your thoughts on that?

also, i think even if all these big pram pushers were gladly getting off for chair users i don't think that's a great solution either(inconvenient for pram users, probably also makes chair user feel awkward too). much better to ban the big prams and ask parents to use fold up buggies. there's limited space on busses so i think it is entirely reasonable that decisions are made about how that space is used

No, it's an example of lazy thinking. You end up banning something that could be accommodated 99% of the time simply to deal with the 1% (or, I'd wager, an even smaller percentage than that). Why is it better to inconvenience pram users most of the time like this when they actually only need to be inconvenienced a tiny fraction of the time by being asked to get off?

MN HQ there is a whole thread on the Edinburgh local site about this

parents with prams come under the same model of disability as people in wheelchairs. This might not be written in the 'model' but logically they are exactly the same with regards to public transport.

What happens is people with prams and those in wheelchairs (who very often just don;t choose to go on public transport, the total hassle it is) compete with each other for the spaces, as well as people with prams per se. I've been on buses when parents have passivly refused to move their prams or buggies so to allow another buggie on board and the driver has not insisted they do.

I'm only just dropping in on this convo and haven';t read it all though, so I', not sure if people are discussing the issue from such a perspective.

If LOthian buses have also decided to ban wheelchairs from busy buses also then some equality in policy has at least been reached. If not (and i can't see how they could in law) then the women disabled (which is what a pram effectivly renders you with regard to public transport) with a large pram is being directl discriminated agiainst.

It's a fine line I appreciate. But the problem is in the design and/or the frequency of buses. This desicion activly discrimnates against poor people with young children. The social model of disabilty doesn't activly mention women with prams, but if you read it they unarguabley coem under its juristinction.

I think it is fine tbh. Where I lived in Edin the buses had no pram spot anyway so it was sling fold up or walk 2 miles into town.

I had a graco city sport for longer outings and a sling for shorter ones.

My patented {grin] technique was:

1. assess other people at bus stop for baby holding capabilities. If fine hand over baby fold buggy, take baby back. You can do the buggy one handed if needs be. You will normally get either your buggy or the baby carried on for you.

If not hand baby to passenger/bus driver and lug buggy on. The citysport unfolds with one hand so getting off is fine and again most folks are nice and helpful.

If I hadn't done this I would have got no where. Big prams on buses should be binned.

"parents with prams come under the same model of disability as people in wheelchairs. This might not be written in the 'model' but logically they are exactly the same with regards to public transport. "

Please tell me you are joking.

You can't seriously think that being a parent with a pram is equivalent to being a wheelchair user.

sorry, don't think i agree with you there MT.

i think using a big, non folding pram is essentially a choice.

Jim Jams, put your handbag down

I certainlty do not mean in any physical or emotional sense but in an access to public utility sense.

And as for chopice - if they had the choice, they would be driving. A lot of people buy secodn had what they can afford.

Surely there are two problems here, first, and most importantly these big prams are not safe for use on public transport. The baby is not secured and there is that story about a baby in England who broke both legs in a big pram when a bus driver had to brake suddenly.

Secondly, they are awkward things to take on buses. Both for the person in charge of the pram, and more importantly for other passengers. I live in Edinburgh and take buses regularly, there are so many elderly people who are reliant on the buses. I think it is silly to pretend that a person pushing an enormous pram is disabled to the extent of an elderly man with two walking sticks, or a person in a wheelchair.

Even given a lack of money a big pram is a choice. You might be given an unsuitable one, but so what? Would anyone defend the idea of us using the unsuitable car seat from the 1970s that my mother has kindly offered because a suitable one costs money?

Those 2 things might well be problems, Upwind, but they're not unique to prams, so why ban prams? Because it seemed like an "easy" answer I expect

"And as for chopice - if they had the choice, they would be driving." But that's not true. Lots of people choose to use buses over cars. I do for many journeys.

I had a massive 3 wheeler pushchair for many years. When traveling by bus and/or tube (which I did a lot) I used a cheapo umbrella folding buggy or a sling.

I think it's pretty crass to suggest that the social model of disability should be applied to people who choose to push a ridiculously oversized pram.

I suspect this sort of comparison is exactly the reason that the rule has ended up being introduced. Look at the people on here who think they need a princess parent and baby parking space as much as a blue badge holder needs a disabled parking space. I strongly suspect that the reason the rule as been introduced is because people have refused to move. If pram owners and wheelchair users were co-existing peacefully side by side then there would be no need for a rule.

About the only thing I can post right now is that jimjams pretty much summed up all my thoughts on this.

My child's SN does not signficantly impair her mobility, but there was a time when I had to use a blue badge for myself, and sticks, a walking frame, big,heavy brace on my leg. Thankfully it was temporary, but I didn't have a car at the time and man, let me tell you, it was a life-changing experience!

Let's see, a big pram and a wheelchair or walking aids - a very silly comparison, mostly because it isn't one.