Ageism

[CurlewKate]

What are the criteria for deleting ageist threads, or ageist posts? Is there any sort of policy on ageism on this site?

What constitutes ageism? Mentioning someone’s age? Saying “old lady”? I am an old lady at 70 but I think of those descriptors as scene setting and I don’t mind them

Maybe the goady threads blaming 'Boomers' for all the ills of the country.

OK, but that is name calling and covers a massive cohort. Old lady is anyone older than you by a few years. It’s the old part that bothers people, but it’s just an adjective

@SpuytenDuyvil Would you consider "black" or "disabled" scene setting?

So am I! And, no, mentioning someone's age is not ageist in itself, any more than mentioning someone's race or sexual orientation is racist or homophobic.

Assumptions or assertions that associate age with a negative characteristic are ageist. Old people should avoid the shops at weekends because we're slow? Ageist. Boomers hoard all the money? Ageist. Ugly outfit looks like 'old lady clothes'? Ageist. The state pensions' a waste of money; old people's access to healthcare should be restricted; old people should be automatically offered assisted dying? Ageist!

Mentions of age-related health problems aren't ageist. They may well include discussion of shoes that are comfortable for time-worn feet - but younger people also have bunions, so it would be ageist to call comfy shoes 'old person' shoes.

Awkwardly, some negative associations with age are ubiquitous in a youth-obsessed society. I don't know if you've noticed that, now their biggest market has passed the age of 55, cosmetics companies are no longer advertising to 'fight' the signs of ageing. We don't like being told we've lost a battle, so now they're selling us our 'best selves' instead. An old face may not be as pretty as a young face, but it's ageist to call it ugly.

I have a particular loathing for the many threads complaining of parents having the downright cheek to spend their own money instead of giving it all to the OP but, unless they make a direct connection between age and greed or selfishness, it's hard to call them ageist. Most do, though, and pretty early on!

Mumsnet could and should do much better on this.

Fair enough but I didn’t draw those conclusions. I am old and fat. If I spent all my time worrying about those things I would never leave the house.

There’s not going to be rigid criteria. If you think a post is ageist, report it and a moderator will make a judgement on that specific post. I’ve done it and posts have been deleted, sometimes entire threads.

Asking for criteria is like shouting “are you saying I’m a liar?” during an argument.

There’s often threads on the “snowflake youth” with many complaining about graduates in the workplace and some even saying they don’t hire them due to their age.

Ageism is quite widely accepted on MN, I agree

You can leave the house and worry at the same time, I certainly do. Probably my age.....

Totally agree.
I used to be married to a young eejit, now I'm married to an old eejit.
Doesn't have to be an ism, just a story with context and something you can visualise.
We all know the difference.

@CurlewKate I wouldn't be offended by those words, but I am not in either or both of those groups. It's to them to decide what they prefer. I am 70, which to some may be old and to some may not be, but I'm not bothered about being referred to as old.

Can't you just be married to an eejit, with their age not being noteworthy? Or, better yet, don't be married to any eejits, but it's your life!

Again isnt just referring to someones age

It's most common on her assuming all older people are rich and hoarding wealth that young people could use

And posts veering in the edge of suggesting a that anyone over 60 should be made to move out of their home, hand over their driving licence and be refused all medical treatment because it's expensive

Its the posts where the op expects sympathy with her position because the other person was old - we can't expect the old dears ro be reasonable can we now

MN never do anything about ageist posts or threads.

anytime I’ve complained they’ve told me they leave them up so that we can ‘educate’ those posting them

😱

Put so succulently.
I think you have covered it. Thank you!

Is that what they said?? wow.
All these ageist posts do is re-affirm that it's perfectly acceptable to keep posting this divisive ageist crap.

Yep that’s pretty much was said. More than a few times.

They've told me that as there is no agreement on what constitutes ageism they leave it to us to educate.

I’ve suggested they seek advice from Age UK if they are struggling although it’s pretty easy to spot ageism

What constitutes ageism?

Assigning negative stereotypes to everyone within an age group

If in doubt think about it like racism or sexism or ableism or religious bigotry or homophobia. Substitute the words black, woman, gay, blind, Muslim into the age related hate speech / slur and if feels bigoted then it is bigoted.

Plenty seem to forget ageism can go both ways...

It's most common on her assuming all older people are rich and hoarding wealth that young people could use

No, what happens is someone posts a statistic to say that older people got a better deal in regards to housing or whatever & then some declare this as ageism or simply don't understand that a general pattern is just that.

What exactly do you expect MN to do about it?

If you police and moderate every comment to such a degree the site will be mostly empty.

And I do see their point about educating those who have posted potentially offensive comments.

If you find a post offensive, report it.

No there are people misusing statistics to sow division and discord

Of course someone who is just about to start drawing their pension is the richest they will ever be

I guess you can think of wealth as being like fitness - we have expectations and norms for each generation based on sensible factors

If you look at the day There is more wealth inequality within a generation than between them

So if want to look at wealth inequality then you need to look at all wealth inequality

And that's those who have already got inheritance as well as pensioners who own their homes

It's clear that a lot of people want an inheritance, they want it now, they want it protected from care home fees ( that the pensioners saved towards looking after themselves )

Cherry picking statistics - misusing then , is a standard discontent tactic - "lies damned lies and statistics"

I sometimes report posts where someone has said “horrible old bat” or similar (usually about a MIL, of course). IMO that is definitely ageist, because “old” is being used between two other clearly negative words as a term of abuse, and at least some moderators seem to agree, because they do sometimes delete those posts.

I think the “would it be ok to use a word referring to another protected characteristic here?” metric is a useful one. Of course there are threads where age is relevant, but there are a lot of posts where it’s used to portray the older person as somehow less valid in their view for that reason alone, which I do think is problematic. Stupid and unpleasant people come in all ages and flavours.

That's an interesting response from them, considering their Talk Guidelines state:

"Sweeping negative generalisations about any group, including trans people and gender-critical feminists, won’t be tolerated"

My bolding btw. So which groups can be negatively spoken about and be left up for 'education' purposes and which groups can't, I wonder?
(Btw imo there's plenty of racism and ableism left to stand too, maybe they're also 'educational'....)

What exactly do you expect MN to do about it?

Erm, follow their own Talk Guidelines?

Thanks for your questions. We assess each report on its merits, but generally, we set a high bar for deletion when it comes to commonly used language - terms like "snowflake," or "boomer", for example. For a while now we've noticed an increasing number of reports calling for the removal of any post that mentions age or generational differences. If we were to take that route, a huge number of discussions would disappear. We do remove posts where age-related language crosses the line into personal attacks or strays into misogyny - such as dismissing someone’s opinion purely because of their age or using age as an insult. Sometimes, the wording of a post might be a little clumsy, but we believe it’s possible to highlight that in a constructive way while still engaging with the substance of the discussion.

We know we won’t always get it right for everyone, but Mumsnet thrives because of the wisdom and generosity of its users, and taking a heavy-handed approach to moderation simply isn’t the answer here. As always, report your concerns to us and we will be happy to discuss any decisions you feel are wrong.