FAO Night Watch: please stop letting Mumsnet exploit you!

[myotherusernamesarebetter]

Mumsnet is a business, not a charity or voluntary organisation. There is no justification for using volunteers.

I urge the Night Watch to rethink their choice to help out a commercial business who should be using paid moderators.

Whilst I feel sorry for the horrible night they had last night and what they saw, I do think Night Watchers have enabled MN to create this situation and therefore hold some blame.

They know how it works - no report button, no contact with staff in the night, sometimes no coverage at all if no one wants to volunteer...

And there have been massive nighttime issues years before now that have exposed how stupid and dangerous this system is. And MN continues with this farce and NW enables them.

Look, you clearly do not know what you're talking about with regards to volunteering laws and how MNHQ use their volunteers.

You've made more than one libellous claim on this thread, saying they're acting illegally.

If you think you know more than MNHQ's lawyers, then why not contact Justine immediately and let her know?

There are many volunteer "whole sites" moderated entirely by volunteers. I'm not referring to platforms hosting multiple subs/sites/forums/usegroups.

Particular examples can be found in the worlds of gaming, sport and technology but there are many others.

We're asked to report because mods can't have eyes everywhere. If the reports can't be seen a solution would be to have a paid team on a rota at night who are allowed to see reported posts . Who can intervene if the volunteers need to contact them. Especially with what has occurred. As someone said other forums have had similar issues.

Just Google “content moderators mental health” and you will see a wealth of information talking about the real trauma that people moderating websites can deal with.

I find myself wondering if mumsnet does anything for its night watch team in this regard?

Well, presumably if any of my comments are libellous, the MN lawyers will contact me. I think I have been pretty careful to make clear that I am questioning the legality, not accusing any organisation of contravening NMWA.

Please would you explain to me why you think night watch moderators are exempt from the NMW act?

My understanding comes from here:

Voluntary workers
Workers are not entitled to the minimum wage if both of the following apply:

• they’re working for a charity, voluntary organisation, associated fund raising body or a statutory body
• they do not get paid, except for limited benefits (for example reasonable travel or lunch expenses)

https://www.gov.uk/employment-rights-for-interns

and here:

Voluntary work
You’re classed as doing voluntary work if you can only get certain limited benefits (for example reasonable travel or lunch expenses) and you’re working for a:

• charity
• voluntary organisation or associated fundraising body
• statutory body

https://www.gov.uk/national-minimum-wage/who-gets-the-minimum-wage

Putting aside NMW for now, volunteering is subject to certain conditions to differentiate it from working, one of which is:

• does not have to turn up for work if they don’t want to (even if you or their colleagues expect them to or they generally work to a regular pattern)

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/national-minimum-wage-work-experience-and-internships#volunteers

Is it really a reasonable to have this site looked after overnight by people who have no obligation to turn up for work or do a full shift?

Are these UK companies, thus subject to the NMW act?

I’m genuinely interested, because I work in a field where unpaid work was rife for many years, until it was stamped out for being illegal - one of the reasons being that it was taking paid work from others. I’m keen to understand the reasons why it would be allowed here and not there.

It's fine that you're keen to understand @Happysack

It's not fine to accuse MNHQ of breaking the law when they're clearly not.

The best thing you can do is email them [email protected]

Where have I accused them of breaking the law?

@Happysack this is just one of your posts accusing them.

I can't screenshot obviously so you'll have to search for the others yourself.

where have I accused MN?

Also, for libel, there would need to be evidence of serious harm - in this case, financial, as MN is a for-profit enterprise.

But I’m sure you know that, what with being a legal expert and all.

See, I've been here years and I wouldn't have known to go to a Night Watch section to report there if that's the case!
I'd use the report button in the usual way.
Which explains why a lot of the time you don't get a response until the next morning if you report something in the early hours.

Does anyone remember when Mumsnet made the "Bums on seats time" announcement about needing more income and introducing premium? And then it came to light about alleged monthly income of £25k for staff who shall not be named and the income the site generates?

The consensus was very much Cough up.yourself, not ask the people who use the site and create your content for you

With the income MN generates, it should be paid staff at night who can deal with reports and safeguarding immediately, not volunteers.

But the concerns voiced about finances when premium was launched (that was like an embarrasing and unnecessary begging bowl) didn't seem to go down well so I can't see paid staff being put in place for night time.

Unpaid, voluntary work is still very much allowed. I volunteer for free for a large global company actually every weekend. Think I must be mad but I do enjoy it. Other friends volunteer at a nearby stately home, a cathedral and also a hospice. National trust has volunteers, charity shops….

I’ve been quite clear that I know volunteering is allowed in certain circumstances, including charities and not-for-profit entities.

These circumstances are less clear cut and I’m not sure why I’m being jumped on - the OP’s second post queries the same thing.

Blimey I wasn’t jumping on you. I responded to your post where you asked a question and said you were genuinely interested in good faith. Sorry for responding.

Blimey I wasn’t jumping on you. I responded to your post where you asked a question and said you were genuinely interested in good faith. Sorry for responding.

Sorry - that wasn’t aimed at you particularly. I’ve had several posted (wrongly) accuse me of libel and I’d had enough.

I have posted what I understand the law to be regarding volunteering, so when I say I’m keen to understand, I am.

If anyone in employment law can explain why MN would not be subject to NMW in this instance, I’d be interested to know.

It's crazy that if you report a post / thread outside of working hours then it isn't looked at by a staff member until the morning. I assumed the report would go to the night watch people.

Why isn't there a message that says 'your report will be reviewed by HQ in the morning. Please share with the night watch team if a post contains distressing content or imagery so it can be reviewed sooner' or similar, with details of how to contact night watch?

A site with a multi million pound operating profit, a huge number of users and heavyweight advertisers not having any paid staff around overnight is absolutely crazy.

“Why isn't there a message that says 'your report will be reviewed by HQ in the morning. Please share with the night watch team if a post contains distressing content or imagery so it can be reviewed sooner' or similar, with details of how to contact night watch?”

A cynic might say it’s either to avoid drawing attention to this system, or because nobody at MN has thought enough about what they have in place.

Sorry. I read your post and just responded. I hadn’t seen others had also said similar. The issue with this site is if I want to quote a post I feel I have to do it there and then rather than continue and read more posts as otherwise I can never find the first post again. 😁

Same!

But MNHQ have always been open about this! When the Night Watch was introduced they posted about it. They have their own 'section' in the Mumsnet Stuff topic.

I'm amazed so few people seem to know about this system of moderation.

(Less so about the inadequacy of the system - and over the years many of us have posted about how ridiculous it is that overnight moderation is only by volunteers).

Many posters haven’t been on the site since 2014 or whatever.

Most people engage only with the topics they care about - why not have a pinned post about NW on all boards?

If the report button is able to be clicked ‘out of hours’ why not have a pop up explaining the different NW system?

Some posts aren’t time sensitive - but some are and need robust handling.

That's very true @Happysack, but it isn't true to suggest that MNHQ aren't open about their moderation.