Talk Guidelines and references to disability

[OneFrenchEgg]

Hi MN

I know there have been ongoing comments and posts so apologies for adding to them.
would it be possible to update the Talk Guidelines? I can see reference to ‘hate speech’ but maybe a reference that due to the diversity of membership and desire to create an inclusive environment posters are asked to avoid stereotypes or lazy diagnosis? It could help to avoid the responses referencing Neurodiversity (could they have autism because they are <insert annoying thing>) but also leave people free to explore concerns about possible conditions if they are suspecting this? I’m always happy to chat about concerns about behaviour if someone suspects eg adhd but not things like ‘I’m a bit OCD’ ‘she’s a bit on the spectrum’ ‘could your annoying neighbour have dementia’ etc?

www.mumsnet.com/i/netiquette

I'm just asking you to stop reinforcing how awful the behaviour of ND people is for you

I have talked about the challenges of being in a relationship with someone with autism, where it wasn't diagnosed and how things may have been better if we had both known about the diagnosis and could have developed strategies to keep the relationship healthy.

In my world that is a constructive thing to say.

And if you start a thread about what people should not be allowed to say, then yes, they are probably going to start talking about those things.

I was referring to a wide variety of conditions there as you know, including dementia.

Is it your position that the behaviour of people with those conditions is never upsetting, anti-social and difficult?

Or is it your position that their behaviour can be, but we must never say so?

Or is it your position that their behaviour can be, but we must never say so?

No, as I've said I'm concerned about lazy stereotypes dropped into threads. That's it, that's what I raised. I'm not going to respond to you again as I can't explain myself any better and if you read my op you can see I have said asking for support is different to lazy reference to conditions. That's it, I don't have any other way of explaining to you.

Couldn't have said this better myself.

I agree with this. Sadly in imposing restrictions may mean that people are inhibited to suggest something that may actually be happening. Something that's very prevalent with the GC and TRA debate at the moment. By limiting free speech silences people out of fear they could be accused of prejudice or discrimination.

Agreed, as I said on another thread, there is as very 'TRA No Debate' feel about questioning the diagnosis of disabilities, or questioning some disabilities in general. This site is so over-restricted, that it's not really a safe space for anyone to have a fair and open discussion about disabilities. I have to second and third guess everything I write on here (hard enough when I have ASD), because the censorship is so constrictive. It really is a No Debate situation. Mumsnet really needs to stop people reporting legitimate questions surrounding disabilities under the false clock of disablism, and ban those who repeatedly trouble-make like that.

#cloak, not clock

MN is a tiny snap shot into someone's world. It's also one side of a story. No one should be sitting in their armchair and diagnosing in the way that is commonly seen on here.

"My friend ha ghosted me!" Within a few comments "maybe they have autism!" Well maybe they do. Maybe they don't. It's not really relevant to the OP at all and not appropriate.

Hardly any of my friends in RL know I'm DN because frankly it's none of their business.

@OneFrenchEgg

But the reason for <insert annoying behaviour> could be autism, dementia, bipolar or a plethora or other medical reasons- by highlighting this to a moaning poster, it could make them realise their anti social neighbour is doing things deliberately.

This isn't being disrespectful to those with these conditions, if anything it's highlighting how hard it can be to fit into our round pegged world when you are a square peg.

Yes I'm personally affected, dd is autistic (how she describes herself) dsd has adhd and exh is probably autistic but undiagnosed.

@gogohmm but how does saying "your neighbour maybe acting that way because of XYZ" help the OP.

It's a bit different if it's a relation of the OP, or genuine concern. But if it's a "neighbour won't say hello to me" sort of thread, autism or any other diagnosis shouldn't come into it. The could have ND, the may not have be ND, they maybe NT and not like the OP or just be a rude person. The armchair diagnosis on this sort of post just encourages stereotypes which are unhelpful.

It’s the implied meaning that any unreasonable or antisocial behaviour is because of an undiagnosed neurodiversity. You see it on here all the time. Which feeds into the stereotype that ND people act unreasonably. It’s ableist and harmful.

So you want to police people’s speech now?

What else do we see on here? People self diagnosing. I’ve seen this so many times. Someone has just done the exact thing a few comments up!

I would argue that self diagnosing a ND condition is possibly as insulting as claiming someone’s ‘different’ behaviour is ASD / ADHD / OCD etc. Its as insulting as the transwoman who also identifies as physically disabled and goes around in a wheelchair even though he does not have a physical disability.

I agree with this too. It’s not an either/or.
But are more people more confident in self diagnosing because of places like this allowing ableist stereotyping comments to stand?

Agree with the OP but the MN “hate speech” moderation basically boils down to “you can freely insult autistic or ND people on MN - so fill your intolerant boots”.

Most disagreeable arseholes are neurotypical btw. Suggesting autism just because someone is an arse is very flaccid thinking. You’ll never stop the righteous keyboards warriors, however, because well my husband has been a total cunt fir decades and turns out HE’s on the spectrum, which proves that any arseholery can be rebranded as a disability. 🙄

Unless Burgundy lives with you, I don't know how you can accuse them of saying you're crap to be around

Perhaps so - that’s not something I’ve considered but will think about carefully.

@burgundyblues In just the same way as not every man with a dislike of prostitutes is Peter Sutcliffe, not every autistic male is an arsehole. Would a Venn diagram help?

My DH - autistic as they come - has precisely none of the attributes you so confidently describe as “standard”. My son - also autistic and diagnosed age 3 has some of them, but so does every other 6 year old I know because, well, 6 year olds are twats sometimes. I was and - quelle horreur - I’m neurotypical.

I’m sorry you’re having to go to such fantastic lengths to justify the fact that you married a horrible man. There are loads of them about. Most are NT.

You are in no position to diagnose anyone either way and your experiences proves fuck all about anyone else’s.

actually I find it helpful sometimes that people do suggest various conditions as possibilities, rather than letting the poster just rant away about how awful or annoying someone is. It can at least open the possibility that the behaviour isn't being done deliberately, or that there might be difficult circumstances around it, and in some ways, that can make life easier for people with those conditions - I think back to some of the comments and reactions years ago to what might have just been annoying or weird behaviour, whereas now there is much greater awareness that the behaviour isn't necessarily because someone is awkward or unpleasant or aloof or whatever, but might have other reasons for it. Yes, people sometimes go too far, and suggest that every bit of difficult behaviour could be autism or something, which can reinforce some lazy stereotypes, but at the same time, the fact that it's even being recognised that some annoying traits could be something other than just generally being an arsehole might be seen as progress in some ways. So I see both advantages and disadvantages.

I haven't called any autistic male and arsehole. Its you who has done that. The word you used was cunt actually, managing to combine misogyny with hatred against an autistic person there - quite the achievement. Go you!

As you know, Autism is a spectrum, so the fact that your H is not the same as my H proves nothing. Doesn't stop my H's traits from being autistic ones. Would a Venn Diagram help?

You are in no position to diagnose anyone either way I haven't done this though, have I? My H was diagnosed by two professionals after an extensive assessment. Following that I did my own reading, and yes, the behaviours my husband displays absolutely are standard. And no, that does not mean every autistic person has them, but does mean they are HIS autistic traits. Again I refer you to a Venn Diagram, being as you seem found of them.

your experiences proves fuck all about anyone else’s You read that back to yourself, about the post you sent to me, and then reflect on how inappropriate your post was even by your own standards.

Perhaps a linked section of examples of things which generally are and aren't ok might help?

Well quite. I had a friend who went out on a night out with a man from her social group and another female friend. At the end of the night, he made a really inappropriate comment she found offensive. She complained about it to someone else. They told her he was autistic (he was). With this, she understood his behaviour and went on to became really good friends with him.

I know, that's not the happy ending @Deguster would have wanted. In her dream world that man would have been labelled a cunt and be ostracised and friendless.

The plain reality is that certain conditions can cause those with those conditions to behave in ways that can be upsetting, anti-social and difficult for those subject to them to understand

That seems dangerously close to “self-appointed MN psychologist” to me. You mention both your husband and your mother - your experience proves nothing, and my reference to cunt/husband was a pisstake for that reason.

It’s also “plain reality” that certain other groups in society CAN behave in ways that are upsetting, anti-social etc. Point that out - get banned. Stick it to an autistic person - crack on, vipers.

It’s shameless and appalling.