Any chance of a review of the FWR moderation rules in light of Maya Forstater's success in court please?

[ViperAtTheGatesOfDawn]

The belief that transwomen are men and that transmen are women has been accepted as a legitimate and protected belief, yet we are not able to state this on Mumsnet under the current rules.

It has become increasingly difficult to discuss feminist issues on the dedicated feminism boards as a result of the moderation rules.

In light of Maya's success in court, and that 'gender critical' beliefs are considered protected under the Equality Act, would it be possible for the FWR sex/gender mod rules to be re-visited please?

[CardinalLolzy]

they simply don’t engage with the Feminism topic at all (thousands of Mumsnet users have hidden it altogether).

Might I suggest that the people who dislike/are so uninterested in Feminism to the extent they've hidden it - so can't even see the threads and scroll past- might not be the most appropriate people to have the overall say in how the Feminism board is run?

[CardinalLolzy]

Thanks again for responding, I know it was a mistake and wasn't too upset (and the mods were very apologetic once I'd worked out what had happened!) but just wondered if the same could happen again inadvertently?

[YourSexNotGenderIsOnFire]

we intend to streamline the topics in the FWR category from five down to two: one ‘Sex/Gender debate’ topic, and one Feminism Chat topic.

Is this definitely happening then @JustineMumsnet? If so, I'm off to delete my account and won't be back (even as a guest).

[Thelnebriati]

we completely reject the accusation that we treat gender-critical feminists differently to our other users.

The '3 strikes and you are banned' policy either applies to all posters, or you are discriminating.

There is at least one poster that is gets 3 strikes within the time frame and is still allowed to post. People who challenge this have found their account suddenly suspended.

[Waitwhat23]

It's a little disingenuous to claim that 'the idea that there are mods at MNHQ who are busily subverting the cause of feminism is straying into tin foil hat territory' when it has actually happened - www.theguardian.com/media/2018/apr/19/mumsnet-reports-itself-data-regulator-transgender-rights-row-ip-addresses-posted-twitter. Even if things have been put into place to reduce the likelihood of this happening now, you can understand people's fears given the history surely? I've seen many users state that they won't use PM's due to concerns about data being breached again.

[Vanishun]

I feel really upset by this too, but the only people who win from a mass exodus are the TRAs.

[TinselAngel]

Which board will the next trans widows thread have to go on? @JustineMumsnet

[inever]

I agree with everything Justine has written and I must say I've found a lot of the posts here and on other threads discussing this quite off-putting, to say the least. Mainly because they're coming from supposed clever, intelligent, critical thinkers. It's almost like faux hysteria - I must say. Like I wrote in another thread, because we're all human and because GC doesn't mean we're all reasonable all the time.

[inever]

• we're all human and because we're GC doesn't mean...
  
  [The edit button would be nice though, MNHQ].

[MarshaBradyo]

@inever

I agree with everything Justine has written and I must say I've found a lot of the posts here and on other threads discussing this quite off-putting, to say the least. Mainly because they're coming from supposed clever, intelligent, critical thinkers. It's almost like faux hysteria - I must say. Like I wrote in another thread, because we're all human and because GC doesn't mean we're all reasonable all the time.

‘Hysteria’

I suppose we’ll have more of that type of post too now. Shame

[JustineMumsnet]

@Vanishun

Hi Justine, I appreciate that I'm just one of the users here, and this is your site (and you're the one facing the flack all around), so I totally appreciate that I can't understand what it's all like from your point of view. I'm sorry you've faced such tough times. I'm also autistic and sometimes my tone comes across wrong which I really apologise for.

But I find it very surprising that you'd ignore the extensive user feedback on the FWR boards on this that dividing topics up like that is not a welcome idea. I don't understand why emails behind the scenes are driving this. I can't help wondering what you're setting yourself up for here as it's going to be a moderation nightmare and I can't see it pleasing anyone?

Hi Vanishun - I understand the strength of feeling expressed here but there's an alternative view represented on other threads and in correspondence to us and by the fact that many, many users have hidden FWR threads. We need to take those MN users into account too. And remember we are not ghetto-ising or shutting conversation down here. We're trying to make the FWR boards usable and welcoming, irrespective of your view about Trans v women's rights. It may not be a perfect solution but we'd like to give it a try and see how it goes.

[GiantToadstool]

Don't many people hide feminism threads because they're just not interested? Not sure its logical to assume they're all genderists.

[JustineMumsnet]

@Waitwhat23

It's a little disingenuous to claim that 'the idea that there are mods at MNHQ who are busily subverting the cause of feminism is straying into tin foil hat territory' when it has actually happened - www.theguardian.com/media/2018/apr/19/mumsnet-reports-itself-data-regulator-transgender-rights-row-ip-addresses-posted-twitter. Even if things have been put into place to reduce the likelihood of this happening now, you can understand people's fears given the history surely? I've seen many users state that they won't use PM's due to concerns about data being breached again.

That individual was an intern working on the Comms team - not a moderator

[CardinalLolzy]

inever I think sometimes the more dramatic posts and posters are more prominent. I certainly don't agree with lots of posts from people who essentially have the same views as me, but by the time i try and write an even-handed reasonable post using appropriate language or collating the relevant data, there are 20 "immediate reaction" posts, not unlike the rest of mumsnet / the internet in general. (Not saying I'm always reasonable and everyone else isn't! just we all have different ways of digesting and interpreting/ responding to stuff)

[inever]

I see what you're saying @CardinalLolzy

[littlbrowndog]

I don’t even know what sex/ gender topic will be

Struggling to understand any of it Justine

[ChazsBrilliantAttitude]

Justine I think it is an unfortunate decision and will prove problematic. I think the interaction of women’s sex based rights with other rights shouldn’t be hived off.

[BoreOfWhabylon]

Thank you @JustineMumsnet and thanks for continuing to host these discussions. I can see the rationale for reducing the number of boards in the topic, although I'm not convinced that what you propose will work as you envisage. Still, we can try it and see. I do hope the valuable archive won't be lost. Also that the Trans Widows will still have their own place.

Thanks also to the Mod Team for continuing in what must sometimes seem a thankless task. I'd like in particular to single out @MichaelMumsnet who has had to put up with some pretty hostile criticism as well as vile ridicule and doxxing on another site. I agree with the previous poster who said he's a good 'un!

[Datun]

@JustineMumsnet

I'm a little confused. If I want to talk about a general feminist topic, like say pornography, do I put that in feminism chat? Because it's not specifically about gender ideology?

And does it mean that you can't then mention gender ideology on that thread?

[ViperAtTheGatesOfDawn]

I am not a fan of splitting the boards and think a sex/gender board will cause more problems than it solves.

Would a more logical way to split the boards be to have a 'women's equality' board and a 'women's liberation' board?

This would be a more natural fit with feminism in theory and practice.

[Datun]

@ViperAtTheGatesOfDawn

I am not a fan of splitting the boards and think a sex/gender board will cause more problems than it solves.

Would a more logical way to split the boards be to have a 'women's equality' board and a 'women's liberation' board?

This would be a more natural fit with feminism in theory and practice.

Yes, I like that, more.

Because there are loads of issues, which don't fit in the confines of a sex/gender topic. But would be tangentially affected by them.

[Theeyeballsinthesky]

All I can say is sometimes you just have to let a mistake play out because I think this is a mistake.

I do hope that MN will be taking note of all those posters who will now be flocking to the feminism section to post after having hidden it for so long. It would be a terrible shame if FWR was being broken apart to satisfy ppl who actually have no intention of ever going there abd just want the conversations there shut down

[Datun]

@Theeyeballsinthesky

All I can say is sometimes you just have to let a mistake play out because I think this is a mistake.

I do hope that MN will be taking note of all those posters who will now be flocking to the feminism section to post after having hidden it for so long. It would be a terrible shame if FWR was being broken apart to satisfy ppl who actually have no intention of ever going there abd just want the conversations there shut down

Surely it will just mean that the sex/gender board becomes the reincarnation of feminism chat, which was the reincarnation of FWR?

[YourSexNotGenderIsOnFire]

@JustineMumsnet can you confirm if this is definitely happening? I don't want to be here a minute longer if so.

[ItsAllGoingToBeFine]

Surely it will just mean that the sex/gender board becomes the reincarnation of feminism chat, which was the reincarnation of FWR?

I strongly suspect that is what will happen. I am also very much looking to all the posts in the sex/gender free feminism section though