MNHQ here: tell us what you think about whether MN should take ads for cryptocurrency trading

[RowanMumsnet]

Hello

We're after your views on Mumsnet taking paid advertising for services that specialise in the trading of cryptocurrencies (eg Bitcoin).

Thus far we've taken the view that MNers are adults, many of them with a pretty sophisticated understanding of financial products and services, and so this isn't on our 'do not advertise' list. But we've had a few questions from the media over the past 24 hours about some upcoming commercial activity with a crypto trading service and as we try to operate on the principle of collaborating with MN users when it comes to these decisions, we wanted to know what you think. Is trading in cryptocurrencies an appropriate area for Mumsnet commercial activity? Is this sort of trading more analagous to gambling (we don't take ads for gambling sites)? Is this sort of commercial activity compatible with MN's fundamental aim of making parents' lives easier?

Would love to know what you all think

Thanks
MNHQ

You need to explain why "this sort of trading" is analogous to gambling. Do you think this about all investments?

Investing in property or government bonds is still a gamble.

The difference perhaps is that many, many of your users certainly don't have a sophisticated view, will have heard a couple of buzzwords and not fully understand the risks. This is the pressing issue.

As I've been bombarded by McDonalds ads this morning, I think it would be hypocritical to suddenly want to play god and decide what appropriate advertising is.

I also suspect that the refusal to accept ads for gambling is more to do with appearance (the site would look cheap and tacky) as opposed to you being against gambling. If you genuinely are against perfectly legal betting then it's worrying you see yourselves as a buffer between real life and users of your forums.

It really is more analogous to gambling. As a regulated financial adviser I am bound to be biased, but it is a sophisticated product that some people will do very well out of and others will do very badly from. It is open to all sorts of cowboys and scammers as it's totally unregulated with no course to redress if things go wrong. The Mumsnet community includes very many vulnerable people and you owe it to them not to accept these types of adverts.

No, I don't think you should. It is the same as gambling, and like the MLMs I think there are a lot of women who are very vunerable to the promises made of making money that 'fits round the kids'

"a sophisticated product that some people will do very well out of and others will do very badly from"

Like property? Investment funds? My Bridesmaid lost millions to Bernie Madoff.

Are there any risk-free investments? Couldn't Brexit put millions of property owners into negative equity?

Where do you (chartered?) draw the line between gambling and investing when all investment is a gamble?

I don't think you should. Crypto currency comes with none of the safeguards of other financial products. I recently managed to convince my naive adult son not to put his small savings into crypto currency. The very thought makes my blood run cold. Investments are protected by legislation. This is a very different kettle of fish.

No. These currencies aren't independently regulated and are too volatile.

You're right, there is no such thing as a totally risk free investment.

The difference is that if someone chooses to invest as a result of my recommendation then they can seek redress through an established complaints process which affords them some level of protection.

If they choose to invest off their own back then that's their lookout and their responsibility to do due diligence. But as this is a relatively new asset class there is very little information available to prospective investors compared to those looking at property or investment funds. And yes, even those have their fair share of scams.

The point I'm making is that this is not a proven asset class and as such should be treated with extreme caution. To advertise it to a vulnerable audience is irresponsible. Many people are far too trusting, don't bother to do proper due diligence and are hardest hit when it all goes wrong.

I'd be fine with it. Investments always come with risks.

I don't know. I don't know enough about it. I'll be watching this thread with interest.

I personally don't think it's in keeping with the site. It's a risky way of investing (gambling) and Mumsnet should be better than that.
If I saw such an advert I'd ignore it, but we do have a lot of people looking for 'easy' ways to make money that really can't afford to lose it.

Thus far we've taken the view that MNers are adults, many of them with a pretty sophisticated understanding of financial products and services, and so this isn't on our 'do not advertise' list.

This seems a cop-out, bound in flattery.

Many of your users may have a sophisticated understanding of financial products but I bet the vast majority (including me) don't.

So MN should protect their users because they're vulnerable? Says who?

They aren't protecting fatties when the advertise McDonalds.

My point is it's hypocritical and patronising to play god and disingenuous to suggest that the reason for not allowing gambling ads is about morality as opposed to PR / aesthetics.

100% no. There is a huge difference between cryptocurrency and equity based investments. Cryptocurrency trading is indeed akin to gambling and comes with added counterparty and settlement risk. It's an area I know well professionally, and perhaps it could be appropriate for any posters clicking through to the Investments board, but otherwise - absolutely not.

I don't understand why adverts promoting gambling (or supposedly similar products such as crypto currency) are considered irresponsible but constant threads advocating matched betting as an income stream are fine. Surely vulnerable people are just as at risk from the latter?

Personally, no, I don’t. Those in financial trouble may be tempted by it when it’s not as simple as placing a bet.

Standard investments are not a zero sum game. If I invest directly in the stock market, or gold or paintings or property, then I might gain or lose, but nobody has to lose money in order for me to gain. The IFA posting above is delighted if her clients make a healthy profit. Gambling, or futures trading, or most MLMs are different - the people advertising will often make their money from your loss, and that’s why it shouldn’t be permitted on MN.

And Bernie Madoff wasn’t investing - he was stealing while posing as an investment manager.

Crypto currencies, I’m not sure about, I don’t know enough to know whether it’s legit or not - I think MNHQ either needs some research and advice on the subject or to decide that the advertising income isn’t worth the reputational risk.

All investment is risky but some investment is more risky than others.

Seeing crypto currency advertised on mumsnet would either make it seem safe as houses and like the disclaimer at the bottom of the ad was just there for legal reasons OR would make me more sceptical of all the ads on mumsnet and less trusting of other brands advertised. I'm not sure which.

On balance, not advertising risky products where the adverts themselves carry disclaimers and any ill effect is most likely to be felt by the most vulnerable sections of society is probably the best choice.

No. Crypto currency investments are Ponzi schemes.

I'm also on the side of no, I agree with Sunseed who said it more eleqouently than I can.

Do you genuinely mean advertising and not the advertising with embedded scripts that also make use of your device/processing power to cryptojack or assist in the mining?

www.theregister.co.uk/2018/01/27/cryptojackers_slip_coinhive_mining_code_into_doubleclick_ads/

No from me too, I can't add much to what others have already posted re: vulnerable users.

I don't think you should. I agree that they are very risky, and will feel safer to vulnerable posters if advertised. I also greatly dislike the fact that some crypto currencies such as bitcoin are used by extortionists and providers of extreme child porn. Why would mumsnetters want to invest in that?

Equities/property investment do carry risk but they are backed by real assets or real businesses which investors believe have the potential to earn money. The UK government has never failed to pay out on their bonds at maturity as fast as I am aware. Cryptocurrency is backed by nothing and its price fluctuates wildly so as an investment it seems like a terrible idea to me.

Seems fine to me if they're paying to access your audience (and keeps Mumsnet going)!