MNHQ We Have a Problem

[DioneTheDiabolist]

In the past week, we have had the NSPCC pull out of a Web chat about their Speak Out Stay Safe (teaching children how to stay safe from abuse and what to do if they have any concerns) and PANTS (teaching parents how to talk to young children about staying safe from sexual abuse in an age appropriate way) programmes.

We have also had Stella Creasey MP pull out of a Web chat about making misogyny a hate crime.

As I am interested and invested in the safety and wellbeing of women and children, I am disappointed that these Web chats did not take place, seemingly because the views of the NSPCC and Stella Creasey regarding Trans issues do not align with some GC MNetters.

I want to ask MNHQ, what are you doing/can be done to prevent this from happening again? Plenty of women and parents here would like to hear what they have to say about keeping our children safe and legislation being drafted to protect women.

www.nspcc.org.uk/preventing-abuse/keeping-children-safe/underwear-rule/
learning.nspcc.org.uk/research-resources/schools/pants-teaching/

www.nspcc.org.uk/preventing-abuse/keeping-children-safe/underwear-rule/pants-how-to-answer-questions/

There you go.

If I were a parent of a trans-identifying child and the NSPCC had come to Mumsnet to big up PANTS, I would have this question for them:

Why is my child excluded from this initiative?

And I would keep bloody asking it until I got an answer.

What is still more important is that MN is able to act as a platform for someone else's message every once in a while!
*
You can talk about what you want to talk about on as many threads as you'd care to start on the subject. Seriously, you chat about that until the cows come home. But when someone starts a thread about something else, particularly really worthy individuals and orgs like Stella and the NSPCC, they really should have that same courtesy extended to them - particularly when it is so demonstrably beneficial!*

Nobody stopped them!

Nobody here told them to go away.

Nobody here refused to engage with them.

They were welcome, we wanted to listen and engage.

Nobody here stopped them.

Of course it's abuse, no one has been told to shut up, no one is trying to shut women up, it's being repeatedly stated the questions are fine its the manner and behaviour,

And if you think one of my posts is abusive or breaks talk guidelines, then report it. Don't just throw out wild accusations.

This isn't personal. The op has asked a valid question, there is a significant issue here and we are trying to explain why people and orgs are not engaging.

I wandered in erroneously to the gender v sex thread on schools, I dared to have a different opinion. What did I get? Told I needed to learn something, that I was talking shite, that I deserved a bollocking, amongst many other abusive posts. Someone even bloody accused me of tweeting some shite, because I was the "only one" who dared give a different opinion to the party line.

You don't need to listen to me. I'm disengaging anyway, but if you wish orgs and people to engage and answer questions, like we all do, then the answer is not to angrily pile on and abuse them when you don't like their opinion, it's to listen and try to understand their point of view.

I wandered in erroneously to the gender v sex thread on schools, I dared to have a different opinion. What did I get? Told I needed to learn something, that I was talking shite, that I deserved a bollocking, amongst many other abusive posts. Someone even bloody accused me of tweeting some shite, because I was the "only one" who dared give a different opinion to the party line

Did you report then? And the offending posts were removed?

No i didn't report, I seldom do and usually comment that I'm going to. It doesn't bother me enough, I just disengage, read the thread if you don't believe me, it's better in my view for the posts to stand.

It's irrelevant though, we are saying "this is what it feels like, this is why they aren't engaging" and instead of the responses coming back saying "ok we didn't know that, how can we fix that" you're just wildly attacked and told you're trying to shut women up,

As said, for me it's not personal. But the op has raised a valid question, there has been numerous threads from posters saying they can't engage on these threads due to the attacks, that they want them in one place so they don't even have to see them. And still it continued.

And now we have the end game. No one talks to you. No one ventures in. And if they do they quickly get out.

So either engage and listen. Stop the abuse. Stop the pile ons. Call it out when you see it. And then maybe, just maybe, orgs and people will start to re engage again.

So either engage and listen. Stop the abuse. Stop the pile ons. Call it out when you see it. And then maybe, just maybe, orgs and people will start to re engage again.

Translation:

Women need to shut up.
Women need to stop agreeing with each other and supporting each other.
Women saying no is abusive behaviour.
Women refusing to deny reality is abusive behaviour.
Women not doing as men say is abusive behaviour.
Women protecting their rights is abusive behaviour.
Women expressing concern for children is abusive behaviour.
If and when women do as we say and follow our rules we may decide to engage with them.

I give up.

It's pointless.

Call it out when you see it.

What do you mean by this exactly? Call what out?

I give up.

What is it you are giving up?

This is utterly infuriating. ‘You’ do this, ‘you’ do that, ‘you’ need to stop x, y, z. There is no ‘you’, there are not necessarily sides and if there are it doesn’t mean that everyone agrees with everything about everything. It’s not a cup football match, with two sides and one winner.

Stop trying to make it easy for yourself to not have to think about things by insisting there are swathes of people who only think about one thing and have only one opinion on the matter. It is clearly not true. I switch off with the whining about abuse when it’s not there whilst posting aggressive and rude stuff to other posters but I try and see past it to see your point. In the meantime I see scandal after scandal in the news regarding lax safeguarding of vulnerable people and the predators that take advantage of it.

Its not pointless. I’ve listed concerns above. If they’re baseless, someone can explain to me why. I’m listening, tell me why I’m wrong.

If they can’t, then perhaps those concerns are valid. This isn’t tinfoil hat stuff, it’s basic safeguarding.

There is no wild abuse coming from FWR. If there is, please report it. The moderation rules are much tighter there. The board is now subject to rules on speech which don’t apply to, say AIBU. We simply cannot be abusive, or even use certain words or terms. We cannot identify the born sex of people under some circumstances even.

We have concerns. We have shared them and asked questions. Those questions have been deflected with an attitude of fingers in ears, shut up awkward women, etc. When women have asked those questions in real life, they’ve been punched, confronted by masked protesters blocking their way, had their employers contacted, and had death and rape threats.

The abuse isn’t coming from the women on the feminism board, it’s directed at them - for asking questions about safeguarding.

I find that extremely concerning. Why are questions on child safety being met with rape threats?

(That wasn't in response to you, Bowl)

Why, Rat.?

There’s a direct opposition in the PANTS pack and the mermaids guidance and that mermaids pack contradicts safeguarding best practice. Why isn’t that an issue? Why can’t we ask about it?

No worries rat ;) hope you’re well

Yeah, sorry, that was in response to Cosmic!

Yes, all good ta; better anyway

You must have a babyBowl, no??

I do indeed ! 2 weeks old, and very cute. Hope the small ratlets are well.

Just want to point out to those on this thread who say it’s all mud slinging that Rat and I are very much on opposite sides of this debate, and while we have locked horns frequently we’ve never been abusive or nasty to each other. There IS a debate to be had on FWR and anyone who engages in good faith is welcome.

I am sorry Rat have I offended you in some way?

So, in effect, you want to say "some questions are just wrongthink and should not be asked

No, you nitwit :) Just not to the exclusion of every other question. Yeah?

It was meant to be a chat on Facebook, right? So NSPCC only needed to engage with people who put questions on Facebook which were relevant to their chosen topics, right?
They didn't need to engage with any questions from the thread if they didn't want to, right?

If any questions put on Facebook were irrelevant, NSPCC could ignore them or give a standard response as to why they were irrelevant.

Yet NSPCC chose to run away and to not give anyone a chance to put relevant questions on the webchat.

How were other questions excluded, heartsease68?
Did someone come round and prevent you, or anyone, from typing your important question?

It was meant to be a chat on Facebook, right? So NSPCC only needed to engage with people who put questions on Facebook which were relevant to their chosen topics, right?
They didn't need to engage with any questions from the thread if they didn't want to, right?

I expect they quite rightly thought that this would be incredibly provocative and rude - better to leave than ignore the already frothing militants in the corner.

Just not to the exclusion of every other question. Yeah?

What other questions would those be then?

Oh for goodness sake. Since when is women asking questions about child safeguarding abusive?

What nonsense.

I'm appauled to see women here called abusive for asking questions about obvious massive flaws in safeguarding advice and policies that leave children vulnerable to actual abusers.

I understand that genderism is a controversial topic but surely we can all agree that children with gender dysphoria deserve the same levels of safeguarding as all other children?

And when an organization like the NSPCC can't or won't answer questions about why their standards of safeguarding are dangerously low for children with gender dysphoria surely this is something that we should all be concerned about regardless of how we feel about the politics of gender in general??

The NSPCC's failure to engage with, admittedly difficult, questions about their safeguarding recommendations is the problem here. It is not the women asking the questions.