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See all MNHQ comments on this thread

More about the Technical side of the attacks on Mumsnet

720 replies

JustineMumsnet · 19/08/2015 11:17

Hi all,
There are have been, understandably, a lot of questions about the tech side of the attack on Mumsnet, so here - courtesy of the tech team is some more detail. We obviously do have to be a bit careful with the details because we don't want to give away information that could help other hackers. Whilst it's true that "security through obscurity" isn't real security, we have no wish to make it easier for a future attacker.

We've spent a lot of time since the attacks began, proactively defending against them, minimising the impact of it and protecting against future attacks. With a busy site like Mumsnet there is a lot of information to go through. When we uncover a new snippet of information, perhaps a new suspicious user account, we have to go back to the start and reanalyze, so it can be slow going at times. We are working with our technology partners who have a lot of experience of these kind of attacks and we have used lots of resources available to us.

Some aspects of our technology stack have already been extensively tested by external specialists. Some of our software code is quite old - nearly as old as Mumsnet itself - and things have moved on a lot over that time. However, we have a program of code review whereby all new code is checked by someone other than the person who created it. It's not perfect and everyone makes mistakes, but we take the quality of our code very seriously.

The Denial Of Service (DOS) attack against Mumsnet was a heavy, sustained attack which initially overwhelmed our ability to respond to legitimate requests. Mumsnet might typically get something like 50-100 requests per second. During the attack we were getting around 17,000 requests per second. Each request carried more data than is normal as well.

The hacking attack on our website was separate from the DOS, though we believe perpetrated by the same person or people. We follow many of the industry's best practices, such as using HTTPS for our login pages, keeping our database separate from our cluster of web servers and not accessible from the internet, and so on. We don't necessarily use the same standards of security as say your online banking service might use, for example requiring multiple passwords or using two factor authentication. We try to balance security against usability and the sensitivity of the information we hold. After all, as pointed out by one of you in an earlier thread, the majority of information we have about a user is what that user publishes in Talk, which is there for all to see.

As has been mentioned several times, we keep our passwords encrypted and we use the recommended algorithms for this, with high "strength" settings. This means that if someone somehow obtained the password data from our database they wouldn't be able to make any use of them - they wouldn't work on our site or on any other site even if the user used the same password on that other site. This remains the case even for MNHQ staff; they cannot un-encrypt the passwords either.

We are now pretty confident it was a phishing attack. Phishing, where a hacker gets a user to enter their username and password into a form from which they can capture that information, fits all the data we have. The hacker doesn't need to decrypt anything, because they capture the password in the browser as it is entered (either by typing it, or if it was automatically remembered by the user's browser or password manager). The list of passwords that has been published includes some that users have identified as being ones that they've mistyped. Our database wouldn't have mistyped ones, only accurate ones, whereas those collected by recording what a user submits would and does contain errors.

It's not obvious how it has been conducted though. We have been able to create a proof of concept which shows that it could work, but that relies on some steps that would be difficult or virtually impossible for a hacker. Phishing attacks sometimes use social engineering to "trick" people into using the fake website rather than the real one, but again, for various reasons, we can rule some of these out. Other phishing attacks are more technical and use other means to get people to visit the fake page. One such example is Cross Site Scripting (XSS). XSS is ranked number three on Open Web Application Security Project top ten list of web site security problems. If the hacker can get the website to put his own code on pages which are to be viewed by other users, s/he can modify the page to either redirect the login process to their own site, to a page which looks just like our login page but is actually recording the details and sending them to the hacker. Also possible, but even less likely, is modifying our login page to submit the details to the hacker as well as to us. If the hacker had gained access to our Content Management System he could have done the former, though not the later. However, we record all changes that are made and there are no suspicious ones.

It's impossible for us to know how many users' passwords have been collected. It's a reasonable assumption, and our working one, that the passwords of everybody that has logged since 6th August 2015, and possibly some time before that, have been collected.

In light of the attacks, we've bolstered some aspects of our security, particularly around our administrative functions. We have further changes planned and will be working on these in the coming days.

Forcing everyone to reset their password, as we have done, would render the list useless provided that users don't choose the same new password and they've not used the same username and password elsewhere.

Some users have questioned why certain other changes aren't being made already, such as a move to enforcing stricter passwords, which makes sense. However, given how crucial the part of our system that deals with passwords is, we have to be really cautious when making changes to it so we don't want to rush and end up creating bigger holes but we will certainly take steps to encourage users to strengthen passwords as soon as practicable.

Any questions do post here - we'll answer as transparently as we can - bearing in mind the caveat about helping future hackers mentioned earlier.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
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KateSMumsnet · 27/08/2015 16:10

Jason is right, we've suspended the app for the time being, Justine has explained fully here www.mumsnet.com/Talk/site_stuff/2456686-Mumsnet-Talk-Apps.

TheHoneyBadger · 27/08/2015 18:28

i already sent you links to the july thread on a site where the hackers were discussing the attack and hack 'live' and how they were planting the 'thing' that would allow them to hack moderator accounts and powers. within that conversation posters from tumblr come on and the whole thing is in print there including people saying they have informed mumsnet and reported the page to them.

it's a live transcript of the hacks and the process of stealing the mod powers back on i think july 14th.

i presume mumsnet has bothered to look at all of this and actually understand what happened?

TheHoneyBadger · 27/08/2015 18:29

sorry but if this was a normal thread questions of whether there was deliberate obtuseness going on or.... would be raised.

Jasonandyawegunorts · 27/08/2015 18:42

As honey badger says, the posts were back on thread 1 or two, it contained copy and pasted chunks of text plus screen shots of the script kiddies on 8 chan explaining how to sign up, hack the profile pages and run script which created Cross-site cookies (Cross-site cooking).

Then going on to explain how to get posts reported, how to post on things like SN CHAT to build up a history (Including siding with MNHQ is serveral trojan horse style threads.) and how to report posts and gain mods account access whenever they look at the poster profiles.

These were all apparently reported to you back in july when the thread took place, all that was happening then was harmless poking around and "pranks".

Simurgh · 27/08/2015 18:48

Ouch.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 27/08/2015 19:18

Post attack discussions:
8archive.moe/b/last/50/3864145/

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 27/08/2015 19:24

More discussions (post event):

b8chan.com/thread/3864145/mumsnet-hacked-dadsec.html

00100001 · 27/08/2015 19:30

MNHQ are denying they knew about this in July.

we [sic] weren't aware of the breach in mid-July; it was only after the DDoS attack and hacking in August that we found out about it.

00100001 · 27/08/2015 19:31

So, its up to you who you believe!

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 27/08/2015 19:35

Also MNHQ are aware, they posted this:

RebeccaMumsnet 20/08/2015 14:20

"I don't know if you've read the c&p stuff taken from the 8chan site last night but Jeffrey's claiming he piggybacked in via a fake profile here and planting IT voodoo thingmies (I know nothing about technology) on a member of staff. He sounds quite plausible and it would explain the more than phishing theory."
I also read this - MN please can you confirm that you have read it too and that your Tech people/ outside Tech people have considered whether this was possible or not and if so have stopped it and stopped it happening again.
We are aware, yes. Thank you.

howtorebuild · 27/08/2015 19:38

Mnhq were alerted to that threads ago.Confused I wonder what's going on?

00100001 · 27/08/2015 19:40

No, they say they were not alerted in july, despite what it says in the 8chan thread.

They knew about after the DDoS attacks

00100001 · 27/08/2015 19:41

going I wouldn't expect MNHQ to reveal how the attackers got in, just that they did.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 27/08/2015 19:48

original 8chan thread where the exploit was discovered.

Not sure why MNHQ were meant to know about it at the time?

00100001 · 27/08/2015 20:13

Because of this

I'll be honest your posts pissed off some furries so we took the liberty of emailing them a link to this thread." and What we're saying is mumsnet now have a link to this thread,

00100001 · 27/08/2015 20:14

More about the Technical side of the attacks on Mumsnet
Spotsondots · 27/08/2015 21:37

Hi. I've been sent an email saying I requested to reset my password, which I did not. I've already reset my password following the DDOS forced logout. Should I be concerned? Tia.

JustineMumsnet · 27/08/2015 21:56

@00100001

Because of this

I'll be honest your posts pissed off some furries so we took the liberty of emailing them a link to this thread." and What we're saying is mumsnet now have a link to this thread,

I don't believe we received any mail with a link to this 8chan thread in July. The first we knew of it was in August when a Mumsnet user - Marchlikeanant - linked to it here.

I'll triple check with the community team in the morning but I'm sure they would have raised it had it come into us.

OP posts:
JustineMumsnet · 27/08/2015 21:57

@Spotsondots

Hi. I've been sent an email saying I requested to reset my password, which I did not. I've already reset my password following the DDOS forced logout. Should I be concerned? Tia.

Hi Spotsondots, thanks - we'll let Tech know and get back to you if there's any cause for concern.

OP posts:
Simurgh · 27/08/2015 23:03

'I'll triple check with the community team in the morning but I'm sure they would have raised it had it come into us.'

I would do just that, Justine - but also speak to your consultants about appropriate action on it because that's the sort of thing MN needs to be on top of from now on. (From other sources even if not directly from the boards and user reports.)

I hope that your family and the families of the other Mumsnetters who were swatted are doing OK. (And also you yourself and the other Mumsnetters themselves.) It's not a pleasant thing to do to anyone - either for the people concerned or the emergency services personnel who were geared up for trouble.

Jasonandyawegunorts · 28/08/2015 02:25

I'll triple check with the community team in the morning but I'm sure they would have raised it had it come into us.

The worrying thing is it's possible they were warned but didn't understand what was going on.

Sansoora · 28/08/2015 03:21

It seems some members are making a right meal out of the hacking for no other reason than to let people see how tech savvy they think they are. Perhaps its time to leave it to MNHQ and move on to other things.

00100001 · 28/08/2015 07:06

errr sans no, I think people are genuinely interested in how this happened, especially since it's happened before and on the surface, it didn't look like any lessons had been learned.

It will die down, but if people want reassurance and answers, why can't they have them? Confused

TheHoneyBadger · 28/08/2015 07:28

yes how terribly silly/showing off of people to be interested in how their data was stolen with impunity and in ensuring it can't be again. obviously just showing off Hmm

TheHoneyBadger · 28/08/2015 07:30

it also, imo, raises the awareness that when we are experiencing high levels of trolling it IS worth bothering about where these guys are coming from and investigating as it can be a cover for other activity and a red flag that this kind of attack is coming.

i did say before but will say again that mnhq could do with someone young and aware and hack and internet savvy who looks at things like this and also knows how to stay abreast of threats that are emerging. mumsnet is quite a target.