Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Site stuff

Join our Innovation Panel to try new features early and help make Mumsnet better.

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

More about the Technical side of the attacks on Mumsnet

720 replies

JustineMumsnet · 19/08/2015 11:17

Hi all,
There are have been, understandably, a lot of questions about the tech side of the attack on Mumsnet, so here - courtesy of the tech team is some more detail. We obviously do have to be a bit careful with the details because we don't want to give away information that could help other hackers. Whilst it's true that "security through obscurity" isn't real security, we have no wish to make it easier for a future attacker.

We've spent a lot of time since the attacks began, proactively defending against them, minimising the impact of it and protecting against future attacks. With a busy site like Mumsnet there is a lot of information to go through. When we uncover a new snippet of information, perhaps a new suspicious user account, we have to go back to the start and reanalyze, so it can be slow going at times. We are working with our technology partners who have a lot of experience of these kind of attacks and we have used lots of resources available to us.

Some aspects of our technology stack have already been extensively tested by external specialists. Some of our software code is quite old - nearly as old as Mumsnet itself - and things have moved on a lot over that time. However, we have a program of code review whereby all new code is checked by someone other than the person who created it. It's not perfect and everyone makes mistakes, but we take the quality of our code very seriously.

The Denial Of Service (DOS) attack against Mumsnet was a heavy, sustained attack which initially overwhelmed our ability to respond to legitimate requests. Mumsnet might typically get something like 50-100 requests per second. During the attack we were getting around 17,000 requests per second. Each request carried more data than is normal as well.

The hacking attack on our website was separate from the DOS, though we believe perpetrated by the same person or people. We follow many of the industry's best practices, such as using HTTPS for our login pages, keeping our database separate from our cluster of web servers and not accessible from the internet, and so on. We don't necessarily use the same standards of security as say your online banking service might use, for example requiring multiple passwords or using two factor authentication. We try to balance security against usability and the sensitivity of the information we hold. After all, as pointed out by one of you in an earlier thread, the majority of information we have about a user is what that user publishes in Talk, which is there for all to see.

As has been mentioned several times, we keep our passwords encrypted and we use the recommended algorithms for this, with high "strength" settings. This means that if someone somehow obtained the password data from our database they wouldn't be able to make any use of them - they wouldn't work on our site or on any other site even if the user used the same password on that other site. This remains the case even for MNHQ staff; they cannot un-encrypt the passwords either.

We are now pretty confident it was a phishing attack. Phishing, where a hacker gets a user to enter their username and password into a form from which they can capture that information, fits all the data we have. The hacker doesn't need to decrypt anything, because they capture the password in the browser as it is entered (either by typing it, or if it was automatically remembered by the user's browser or password manager). The list of passwords that has been published includes some that users have identified as being ones that they've mistyped. Our database wouldn't have mistyped ones, only accurate ones, whereas those collected by recording what a user submits would and does contain errors.

It's not obvious how it has been conducted though. We have been able to create a proof of concept which shows that it could work, but that relies on some steps that would be difficult or virtually impossible for a hacker. Phishing attacks sometimes use social engineering to "trick" people into using the fake website rather than the real one, but again, for various reasons, we can rule some of these out. Other phishing attacks are more technical and use other means to get people to visit the fake page. One such example is Cross Site Scripting (XSS). XSS is ranked number three on Open Web Application Security Project top ten list of web site security problems. If the hacker can get the website to put his own code on pages which are to be viewed by other users, s/he can modify the page to either redirect the login process to their own site, to a page which looks just like our login page but is actually recording the details and sending them to the hacker. Also possible, but even less likely, is modifying our login page to submit the details to the hacker as well as to us. If the hacker had gained access to our Content Management System he could have done the former, though not the later. However, we record all changes that are made and there are no suspicious ones.

It's impossible for us to know how many users' passwords have been collected. It's a reasonable assumption, and our working one, that the passwords of everybody that has logged since 6th August 2015, and possibly some time before that, have been collected.

In light of the attacks, we've bolstered some aspects of our security, particularly around our administrative functions. We have further changes planned and will be working on these in the coming days.

Forcing everyone to reset their password, as we have done, would render the list useless provided that users don't choose the same new password and they've not used the same username and password elsewhere.

Some users have questioned why certain other changes aren't being made already, such as a move to enforcing stricter passwords, which makes sense. However, given how crucial the part of our system that deals with passwords is, we have to be really cautious when making changes to it so we don't want to rush and end up creating bigger holes but we will certainly take steps to encourage users to strengthen passwords as soon as practicable.

Any questions do post here - we'll answer as transparently as we can - bearing in mind the caveat about helping future hackers mentioned earlier.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
6
BrumpyGollocks · 25/08/2015 14:09

It was a bloody long night Blush

Soooo glad you are back !!

Gin & cake all round!

Boofhead · 25/08/2015 14:11

I've had two emails from MN Contact Us. One titled 'Mumsnet Calling', and the other 'READ THIS..'

Have these come from MNHQ? (I was one of the 3000).

The first one has someone else's user name on it, so it seems suspicious.

Thanks

AllThatGlistensIs · 25/08/2015 14:11

There'll be a national gin shortage by the time this is all sorted.

Flowers
WandaFuca · 25/08/2015 14:12

On one of my attempts to access the site, I got an error message I hadn't seen before:

"Error Code 20
The proxy failed to connect to the web server, due to TCP connection timeout."

Then my IP address, Proxy IP address, Origin Server IP.

Anyone know what that was all about?

JustineMumsnet · 25/08/2015 14:13

@Boofhead

I've had two emails from MN Contact Us. One titled 'Mumsnet Calling', and the other 'READ THIS..'

Have these come from MNHQ? (I was one of the 3000).

The first one has someone else's user name on it, so it seems suspicious.

Thanks

Hi Boofhead - I've flagged this to the team to check - I'm not entirely sure what those mails were titled - but we'll let you know soonest if there's anything to be concerned about.

OP posts:
Straitjacket · 25/08/2015 14:18

Wanda, I got the same, too.

Simurgh · 25/08/2015 14:18

Yes - I received that one, Wandafuca. (I'd never seen it before - those new security consultants inputting perhaps?)

Thanks Justine.

HelenaDove · 25/08/2015 14:19

Yep I got that too Wanda

lunar1 · 25/08/2015 14:22

Did everyone give their real name when they signed up? I'm worried about the safety of my name and address being linked to my user name. If this carries in it feels like only a matter of time till we are all outed. Is there any way for our personal details to be deleted?

WandaFuca · 25/08/2015 14:26

Ah, thanks, Straitjacket and Helena, and Simurgh - that could well be it.

Beeswax2017 · 25/08/2015 14:26

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Hassled · 25/08/2015 14:27

So glad you're back. And I hope everyone at MNHQ is OK - whenever I saw MN was still down I was thinking "they must be going out of their minds" - I can't imagine the stress.

I did a bit of DDOS research and found the terrifying assertion that for a mere $150 you can buy a week-long DDOS attack on the black market. The fuckers.

Garrick · 25/08/2015 14:29

Just for info, I haven't received anything from MNHQ since my last password reset confirmation. I wasn't on 'The List'.

Simurgh · 25/08/2015 14:31

I've been getting the normal Mumsnet Team emails.

MuttonDressedAsGoose · 25/08/2015 14:42

I got an email as well. It seemed to be addressed to another member - someone with a yahoo account. It was as if I'd been BCC'd. And it told me that mine was one of the hacked accounts and had a link for me to change my password.

BigChocFrenzy · 25/08/2015 15:00

Justine
I think this DDoS can now be classified as an APDoS (Advanced Persistent Denial-of-Service)

So, imo, if you haven't already implemented this, your staff need a 2FA (2-factor authentication) security system like online banks have, where they require you to enter a random number sent to your mobile.
Then, even if a hacker steals a password, it won’t be any use to them because they won’t have access to the mobile phone which generates the random number required for access.

Sonnet · 25/08/2015 15:06

For me it went down yesterday mid afternoon not yesterday evening as the MN update said. Almost 24 hours - that is a sustained attack. I am assuming we do not have to re-set passwords this time.

BigChocFrenzy · 25/08/2015 15:15

Everyone be alert:
Do NOT absent-mindedly click links in a "Mumsnet" EM - in fact just delete the damn EM without opening - unless it directly follows your request for a password change.

BoffinMum · 25/08/2015 15:19

Justine,

Basically the two-step authentication for staff members suggestion is sound. Ian probably uses this approach with a BBC dongle if he brings a work laptop home. Ask him to dig it out and show you, and you'll see what we mean.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 25/08/2015 15:23

Hell, why not enable 2-step authentication for anyone that wants it?

SaskiaRembrandtWasFramed · 25/08/2015 15:28

I agree with 2-step authentication. That would be a good idea!

Fandangola · 25/08/2015 15:36

I would like to know that my posts are safe from being exposed and linked to my email address please?

Dawndonnaagain · 25/08/2015 15:36

I have emails from mumsnet, one from today, one from yesterday. Some are not my username or my email address.

Fandangola · 25/08/2015 15:39

And is my home address safe which I've given to mn for product trials? Sorry if this has been answered before

MadrigalElectromotive · 25/08/2015 15:39

I agree Boffin - this is about the hacker(s) hating the fact that women have a space online where we are able to communicate with each other.