Since WBY was such a huge success, how about turning our collective attention to DV?

[lissieloo]

Quash a few myths, challenge a few preconceptions?

WBY was, and is, awesome. I really think we could do the same for domestic violence. There seem to be an awful lot of posters in, or who have survived an abusive relationship. Reality's "Now Look Here" is brilliant, and we could incorporate that. I'm sure that the bloggers would get behind it too.

Whaddya think?

[FairyFi]

you are joking tho Ronald right?

all these words you use, and the posters telling you they are derailing words, you don't see that?

You keep proposing 'a different campaign'.

The OP has proposed a campaign already. There wasn't a sarcastic memo.

This thread is for WBY as stated... and dispelling the myths.

I hope you can be comfortable with the initial thread intent, because thats why others came along.

Saying that you are not trying to irritate doesn't remove the replies you received. Like saying, I don't mean to offend anyone [but then follow that with an offensive comment] its all a bit suggestive of wolf in sheep's clothing.

[RonaldMcDonald]

wem

It certainly wasn't my intention to upset anyone

[FairyFi]

Ronald sounds really hollow, given the sarcasm, direct attempts to derail, despite others voicing their concerns, posting and asserting a diametrically opposed view to the OP and supporters thereof.

[RonaldMcDonald]

fairy

I think we are going to continue to be at a loss to understand each other.

I have continued to remain polite and answer whatever I can as clearly as I can. I am sorry that this causes you to raise your eyebrows. I have been equally confused by some of the comments made here.

I didn't think there was any site decision in the opening post. I thought it was something I was free to comment on and did so.

[StealthPolarBear]

Thanks Feegle. I've heard of the british Crime Survey but never looked into it in detail and all that sounds really useful.

[FairyFi]

I didn't hear you say you were at a loss to understand me .. but no, I think your comfort zone would evidently be in a shiney new thread of your making, along the lines that you keep suggesting. I hope you will be comfortable in that.

further comments probably made the OP a lot clearer as they shared and voiced the OP comments really.

[FairyFi]

You have continued to remain outside of the bounds of polite or see that. I haven't raised my eyebrows which is suggestive of something other than just simply disagreeing with your comments and any parallel to this thread.

[FeegleFion]

Not a problem Stealth I thought this small part of the whole piece was bang on, as it provided great information alongside police and CPS figures, the whole article is a brilliant read.

I don't believe Ronald has been anything other than polite and attempting to offer some alternative points for thought and discussion (though you are failing miserably with those of us who are passionate about empowering women, Ron)

Yy to describing women currently experiencing, as well as those who previously experienced, DA as survivors.

[bigbuttons]

There is a huge issue with 'treating abusers' and that is, with EA, that the abusers will never recognise that they are abusive.
It seems to be a fantasy some people have, including their abused partners of course, they these men will see the light, be mortified and apologetic and never do a bad deed again.
It doesn't work like that.

To be abusive you have to have very deep seated psychological issues.

You can't 'treat' an abusive narc who thinks he is absolutely right can you? Or who genuinely believes that he has done nothing wrong, who genuinely believes that he behaviour was forced by the behaviour of the victim. Believe me these men do exist.
Before we do any 'treating' of these men we need to help their victims.

[K8Middleton]

I am finding the bickering a bit distracting. I was on the thread that prompted this one. It was about a woman who had been punched in the face in front of her children, by a man known to her, while on holiday and she was asked to leave the holiday park.

Many, many posters - including those who would never try to categorise rape or argue that "date rape" (urgh hate that term) is not rape - came out with victim blaming statements. I don't ever want to read such hateful, ignorant stuff on MN again. That's why a campaign is needed and that kind of ignorance, bigotry, stigmatising and hatred of the victim needs to be abolished.

Until it becomes unacceptable to suggest that the abused is in any way responsible for the abuse it is going to be harder for people to recognise what is happening and seek help.

At the moment I find the reasons why someone abuses, who is more likely to be targeted or perpetrate the abuse a bit irrelevant. That's not going to have an influence on the above where we don't recognise or equate violence against a known person with the same seriousness as that by a stranger.

What I want is for DA, DV or whatever label you prefer to become socially unacceptable. I want people to understand that if someone is physically violent towards someone else it doesn't matter what was said; that because the abuser is known to the victim that doesn't diminish responsibility or awfulness; that just because X earns the money from paid work it doesn't give X the right to control Y; that when X does ABC that is likely to be indicative of abuse; that only the abuser is responsible for the abuse; it is not only weak people are abused - anyone can be victimised.

Sadly we are much further back along the road than identifying perpetrators or statistically likely victims. Many, many people do not understand what DA/DV is or that victim blaming compounds the problem.

[RonaldMcDonald]

THanks Feegle

Thanks for also showing the BCS stats alongside some excellent commentary.

The BCS stats and a great deal of the reporting of them in the press are part of the reason why I didn't really want to discuss stats. I don't feel that they are necessarily reliable atm.

Sorry to go back to this buuut I think that especially in the areas of reported female abuse a great deal more could be done to really understand what is going on there.
When a man reports that a woman has been abusive when questioned, it depends on
the way that he is questioned
the questions he is asked
why he is being asked (ie is it after he has violently attacked a woman or been arrested)
and looking at the picture of the entire relationship.

I was never making excuses for abusers.
I was never suggesting that women were the problem in DV/DA

I was simply asking as a thread of a campaign could we also try to give some information and help to women who are domestic abusers.

I know that there are women on these boards who have suffered terrible abuse emotional and physical from their mothers.
I know that there are women who struggle themselves and are abusers.
I was simply suggesting that maybe we could also look at that.

I get it that this isn't what the majority wants and I'll back off now.
I absolutely see that education of men and women is vital to help and support survivors and if we are to move forward away from DV/DA.

I am far from an apologiser for violence in any form.

[K8Middleton]

Ronald I think you have been remarkably polite in the face of some quite needless unpleasantness - not from the majority of people but still not nice.

I can see why you have mentioned this. If people want help and can't get help that needs looking at. However, I think addressing that feels quite far away when there are still people who believe that the victim is somehow partly to blame or even colluded with the abuser and that many, many people don't know where to get help or recognise that they are being abused.

[StealthPolarBear]

I am sure they are not reliable. Many aren't. But they do give an indicator of a size of the problem, else there isn't even a starting point. You could argue that women in the Western worlds are getting trampled to death by elephants more than dying from heart disease, and we'd all want MN to ban elephants.

[FeegleFion]

Ronald I honestly think if that's something you feel passionate about exploring, then you really should start the thread that others have suggested.

I think it's been decided that this thread is about supporting women survivors and providing some insight into the intricacies of DA, in all it's guises and that's definitely how it should be, IMHO.

It saves confusion and everyone knows exactly what will be covered.

[minkembernard]

Until it becomes unacceptable to suggest that the abused is in any way responsible for the abuse it is going to be harder for people to recognise what is happening and seek help.

this. great post K8.
because I too thought a lot of what was said on that thread to which you are referring was deeply disappointing to say the least.

[kickassangel]

Earlier it was suggested that the real answer lies with men.

The one million men campaign is trying to do just that. In fact, I think it would be great if mn could get someone from that (Patrick Stewart?) on mn.

There are really two points to look at.

1. Educating and supporting women so that they are less vulnerable, see abuse for what it is and know how to act. Whether that is for themselves or others.
2. Educating and supporting men so that they see positive role models, respect women and know how to support victims.

It is a male problem, and one where men and women need to work together, so that the next time someone in a pub makes a comment about "she must be gagging for it with that much on show" people would recoil in shock and horror.

Defining abuse is incredibly difficult. One person's act of kindness can be another person's way to control.

I think the starting point is to make it very clear that abuse is deliberate. Nice guys don't just get a bit upset by a bad day at the office and then take it out on their family. Abusers do that. The behaviour can be the same, but the intent is different. Coming home angry and fed up but being cheered up by family or having a break is normal. Not getting out of your black mood until you've managed to upset someone else is manipulation and abuse.

[kickassangel]

I have a huge amount I want to discuss on this btw, none of it clearly defined.

One question.

I look at many relationships and see that to a certain extent people try to maneuver things to get what they want. This can be tiny things like getting the best seat at the movies or the bigger portion for dinner. I think that is fairly normal type stuff. But given that abuse can start in such subtle ways, how do we separate that from the early signs of abuse?

My thinking is in how someone deals with disappointment in getting their way. Most people would be upset or suck it up. An abuser would try to get their own back some way. Is this right?


One last comment, i really hate the phrase forgive and forget. It's an abusers best friend.

[FairyFi]

good Kickassangel!

the defining factor in the best seat, bigger portion scenario, is that they are out for themselves, at sometimes smaller or greater cost to others... the abuser, is not about those things particularly but may do them, but all about keeping the survivor under control, it is about intent, and the reward gained from doing that.

So, someone that pushes themselves forward for best seats etc.. front of q's, bigger portion, isn't necessarily seeking to hurt anyone else or gain control of them, just being a bit selfish.

The abuser will resist any form of an individual exerting control over their own life, and will then escalate manufactured anger's, intimidation, and physical to scare the survivor into coming back into line. Seeing the survivor scared, crying, etc. will not stop them from continuing, they would blame the crying survivor for making them behave in this way (if the survivor would only do as she was told, he would keep having to intimidate her into staying 'down')

the sizeable voice of MN could do a huge amount to highlight the vast silence on DV out there.... and it is very much about the words used to do that, and make it a male issue.

K8 what you post about the awful punch in the face and the societal response does absolutely make sense to the core being the core of this thread, is a sad indictment.

The stats reporting is a key element of public perception in the society at large believing women, and therefore vital validation of recognition of their situation and action to remove themselves and their DC from that more and more. It is being pushed a lot at the moment and needs balancing to be clear in the public mind.

At normalising, minimising, at pointing to the 'something else' rather than the real issue.

I have also seen a lot of the damage done to fellow MNers through the lack of validation shown, and normalising, and I think raising it here with mum's will influence the next generation to stop minimising it and apportioning blame.

words like, 'conflict' indicative of two parties being involved, for instance, when abuse is used it is clearly one on another.

[FairyFi]

that men abusing women is a vast hidden problem that 75% of DC are exposed to

[Tee2072]

Fuck! I just lost a huge long post. Grrrrr

Feegle, so glad to see you back. We're going to need all the experts and professionals we can get!

Ronald, the issue is that you want to help the female abusers. This campaign is not about helping the abusers, of any gender, but the abused, of any gender. Surely it is obvious that the campaign must focus on one or the other?

[FairyFi]

Is the issue a male one? I am wondering after your post Tee? as DV is vastly primarily male perpetrated

[Tee2072]

Where did I say it was a male one? I said just the opposite!!

[EldritchCleavage]

I think a Mumsnet campaign on domestic abuse is a really really good idea. I had very little idea about it until I joined MN, and reading threads about it has been a valuable education for me.

It's a tall order, no doubt, but it is possible to reset peoples' thinking (over time) to make unacceptable things that were once shrugged off (think of drink-driving, racial discrimination, unequal pay-not eradicated, but at least stigmatised and punished).

[FairyFi]

I was seeking to clarify whether this will be portrayed on here as a gender issue or not.

the issue is a male one.

We are needing truth and validation for abused women? are we?

I want to be sure thats what's happening on this thread, that the campaign is on the survivor, yes, but the female survivor and being believed? I wasn't sure after your post about 'any gender'