Since WBY was such a huge success, how about turning our collective attention to DV?

[lissieloo]

Quash a few myths, challenge a few preconceptions?

WBY was, and is, awesome. I really think we could do the same for domestic violence. There seem to be an awful lot of posters in, or who have survived an abusive relationship. Reality's "Now Look Here" is brilliant, and we could incorporate that. I'm sure that the bloggers would get behind it too.

Whaddya think?

[K8Middleton]

Yy Lissie. Well said :)

[FeegleFion]

Can I also point out, that DV, is the most commonly used term.

It is totally correct in some instances, for example when a woman has been physically abused it is correct for HCP, Police etc. to use DV.

A lot of my colleagues and professional peers say DV but when I started out, I attended some intensive training and the woman who delivered that training refused to use the term DV to describe the abusive relationship and she also refused to call the women, ladies. I then went on to work with her, and she would correct anyone she heard.

The word violence is specific and as has been pointed out up thread, doesn't offer any kind of answer for women who are being abused in the many other ways DA presents.

I often point out to service professionals that they really should be saying DA.

As for ladies. That infers that a woman is expected to be and behave in a certain way. We aren't all ladies we are, however, all women and calling women in DA relationships a woman, means we aren't excluding (or seeming to be excluding) any woman from any background.

I hope that makes sense. I'm waffling.

[lissieloo]

Feegle, I totally see what you mean (and, as an aside, I loathe the word lady/ladies - it seems dismissive and patronising)

Thank you K8

Will be back later.

[JuliaScurr]

www.womensaid.org.uk/domestic-violence-articles.asp?section=00010001002200170001&itemid=1266

www.womensaid.org.uk/domestic_violence_topic.asp?section=0001000100220041&sectionTitle=Domestic+violence+%28general%29

I know it's only FACTS - but female abusers? Really? Again?
Focus on the actual problem
Male violence against women

[minkembernard]

feegle you are of course correct pulling me up for saying ladies and not women. I do only use ladies in certain contexts and not with specific reference to DA - I find saying 'thanks women' as opposed to thank you ladies a bit weird but see your point I am aware that it is a loaded term.

as are terms such as innocent victim etc.

I will be more careful in future

[lissieloo]

Isn't it odd? Thank you ladies sounds perfectly ok, but "now then lafies" sounds really wroing.

[minkembernard]

with reference to the post about the dangers of leaving an abusive rs and the difficulties.
yes good point. however, I think that is another thing to include in the thread/campaign rather than a reason not to have it.

another common occurrence on threads in MN is for the thread to progress like this
OP- I have this issue with my dp, is it me?
replies- that is abuse
next comes LTB
and after that the sympathy turns into well if you choose to stay you are an enabler etc. your poor children you are a bad mother.

which completely negates how difficult it is in fact to leave. that leaving takes time and is far more likely to succeed safely if done with planning and support.

and also that the responsibility for abuse suffered or witnessed by the children lies with the abusive parent.

so this is another myth that should be challenged. that it is easy to leave an abusive relationship, that you can just get up and walk out and that when survivors do leave they are immediately safe and immediately happy because all their problems have been solved.

[RonaldMcDonald]

julia

yes, females abuse also. (Many women who abuse are very distressed by the abuse that they perpetrate. It is my feeling that many of these women don't understand what is going on or how they got there and have few ways of gaining help or even of having their story listened to)


Stating the fact that women abuse does not alter the fact that men abuse.

[Reality]

No, but it does derail and dilute the conversation somewhat.

I think it's perfectly appropriate on Mumsnet to have a conversation about male violence towards women, without having to add the coda: but of course woman do it too.

I'm sure they do, but that's not what THIS conversation was about.

[FairyFi]

hi K8 thanks for your feedback...

DV and DA are one and the same.

In the context of DV/DA sex is important ... I stated it is a male issue. I was making a statement that it is a male issue to take responsibility for, much the same as rape is.

It is as much a female issue as saying child abuse is a child issue... and I was about to run off and get that link but when I returned I saw Mink s v. eloquent post.

I prefer to understand why some might see it as a won't work really, shame to slap labels on, those (although I didn't personally notice, maybe skipped across too quick) comments, its useful to consider how we can best make it work, and what the aims of making it work are.

Which I think are very aptly put in the WBY! [even when you don't believe yourself] - as invalidating a woman's feelings under those circumstances is highly damaging potentially suicidal.

Profile I had equated to psychological profiling, and not a person's age/race - thank you for clarifying your focus here, as profiling is imperative to detect red flags.

What to look for on the first date, etc.

I want to challenge the term 'victim' - instead lets use heroic survivor [against all the odds and often the world, whilst totally isolated]

[FairyFi]

sorry not sex .. .but gender

as in: In the context of DV/DA gender is important

[FairyFi]

why is there still comment going on about female perpetrators? I am confused... I was sure this thread's intent was to support survivors..

and someone already suggested starting a separate thread to take that to [female perpetrators]

Is there still misunderstanding about the thread intent?

[FairyFi]

is there a problem here Ronald with accepting that this thread is only for believing women suffering abuse?

[StealthPolarBear]

"FeegleFion Tue 23-Jul-13 02:08:38


Also, statistically (yes, statistics annoy me too, however, this is all we have to work with) there are only 1 in 1000 (Heterosexual) DA relationships in the UK in which the perpetrator is the woman."

Thanks for the clarification re DV and DA. Also, can I ask where you got the above from?

[minkembernard]

I am with fi on this ronald and stealth can you take that issue to another thread please if you want to continue discussing it. it is seriously hijacking the thread.

so in answer to your original post ronald ^Will it include help for women who are abusers?
Tell them how to also get help?^

No.

[StealthPolarBear]

err what? I came on the thread to register my support and complain about the hijack!

[StealthPolarBear]

Ah you mean because of my last question. I have recently looked into DV in some detail and there are very few stats about it. This is one of them and so I'm interested in where it came from to see what else there is from the same source.

[StealthPolarBear]

Other than that I have talked about what proportion of DV takes place in families with children, and discussed the fact it often starts in pregnancy. So I consider myself to be an actual member of the established thread thank you very much.

[FairyFi]

the law in the UK, the WHO definition and Relate's and WA all use DV as the all encompassing. DV is a generic term broken down into components of PA, SA, EA, FA, etc.. any one, or all can be DA/DV, and this:

^www.domesticviolencelondon.nhs.uk ? What Is Domestic Violence?‎
Definition. The Government defines domestic violence as. "Any incident of threatening behaviour, violence or abuse (psychological, physical, sexual, financial or ... ^

assaults and violence [emotional, physically] all have the same physiological impact, there are complex psychological levels involved in the impacts of and recovery from, which do not benefit the survivor through comparison, are completely contra-indicated in fact. Waterboarding, brainwashing, all other useful tags.

Its far more to do with the pattern of controlling and coercive behaviour ....

I don't see how referring to women as ladies is somehow less, when ppl's intent and its reception is clear, but woman is a lot more grounded for sure

There's far more arguing and picking on here than actual development of support/belief strategies

gonna throw toys outta pram and head off, as lost the point a bit now...

[minkembernard]

So I consider myself to be an actual member of the established thread thank you very much.
as you are stealth
wasn't trying to push you or anyone else off the thread just trying to push that issue off the thread (onto another one if required).

and yy to the issue of it often starting in pg.

someone (who having been police should have been trained to know better) said to me recently 'well it took you long enough' [to work out x was abusive]

that was the point. he was not always abusive. if he had always behaved like that I would not have been with him let alone had kids with him.

he chose to become more abusive once I was pg and cracked it up after the dcs were born. by which point I felt far more trapped.
and I was also stuck in that other rut- if we argue all the time it must be at least partly me.

so 2 myths I would like to start with (and which I have seen on MN):

• MYTH: survivors should have seen it coming. more intuitive individuals or choosy can spot abusers straight off
  

yes there are red flags and we should educate on those but an abuser usually shows their best face at the start- they change over time, usually very subtly- the boiled frog effect

• MYTH: survivors should not provoke their abuser. you can change your abuser or the way your abuser treats you by changing yourself.
  

you cannot change other people.

[minkembernard]

oh and
MYTH: there is always fault on both sides
which is not to say that all survivors are angels. I am all too human. some disagreements we had were partly or wholly my fault. but none of the abuse was partly my fault.

maybe we shoudl abandon this thread and have a thread part 2 with a clearer set of parameters at the top? get our ground rules in first and relaunch this ship?

[RonaldMcDonald]

I thought that I was free to ask about the proposed campaign and the direction it might take.
I also thought that it would be fine for me to openly discuss female abusers in a positive and understanding way as it is rarely mentioned or addressed and I felt that there might be room for it in whatever campaign MN finally decided upon.

Has there has been a decision made that mn will campaign about DA and DV and has a decision been made that the campaign will be purely educational and directed at those suffering from abuse? I must have missed that memo.

I am not trying to irritate anyone by my being here or posting. I don't feel I am derailing.
I am also not posting stats as the stats are variable and there are many many interpretations. Those interpretations feel unfair but I am unsure. They make me uncomfortable and I think time will show better numbers.

Perhaps it is better to have a campaign solely to educate the public about what domestic violence or domestic abuse really is and how to help those who have been abused deal with it.
I utterly agree that all victim blaming is wrong

[FairyFi]

abuse is an escalation, worst when lack of control is detected [by the perpetrator in the woman] normally at time of realisation of abuse and plans to, or actually, leaving, and afterwards. When women are tied and vulnerable with babies they are far more, rightly, focussed on their demands... so any threat to that control will provoke further escalation....

Noone knows where escalation leads... from angry faces, to throwing plates, to threats, to strangulation.. (normalised considered a joke, just messing about - certainly by high profile coverage recently) Keeping your head well below the parapet for your own safety is paramount, making quiet plans, being secretive, to remain alive..... these perpetrators are believed to be good fathers, don't wear their red flags, but their behaviours belie their beliefs, even right at the start, despite whatever charm and love-bombing offensive, boundaries are already crossed.

[wem]

Has there has been a decision made that mn will campaign about DA and DV and has a decision been made that the campaign will be purely educational and directed at those suffering from abuse? I must have missed that memo.

There hasn't been a decision made - this is the thread suggesting it. And you came on with the first post making a completely separate suggestion, which, while on a related topic, would involve a very different campaign. Do you not see that this could put people's backs up a bit? If you feel strongly about it, start your own thread and make your own suggestions.

[FeegleFion]

Stealth the stats I quoted were provided by a professional peer in a workshop for she was delivering.

Now I am prepared to say that this wasn't recent (within the past year - I'm on Mat Leave) and it may be slightly different now, however not enough to make it a moot point.

Here are some more recent stats, taken from KarenIngala 's work. (Karen excellent piece!)

"The data referenced, that approximately a third of victims of domestic abuse in the UK are male comes from data from the British Crime Survey. It contrasts significantly from data from police crime reports which estimate that between 80-90% of violence against the person reported is by women assaulted by men.

The main problems with the statistic that a third of reports are by men are:

It is about domestic abuse and/or conflict, not domestic violence

The data does not differentiate between cases where there is one incident of physical conflict/abuse/violence or those where violence is repeated. If we look at the data for where there have been four or more incidents, then approximately 80% of victims are women

The data does not differentiate between incidents where violence and abuse are used as systematic means of control and coercion and where they are not

The data does not include sexual assault and sexual violence

The data does not take account of the different levels of severity of abuse/violence, ‘gender symmetry’ is clustered at lower levels of violence

The data does not take account of the impact of violence, whether the level of injury arising from the violence or the level of fear. Women are six times more likely to need medical attention for injuries resulting from violence and are much more likely to be afraid

The data does not differentiate between acts of primary aggression and self-defence, approximately three quarters of violence committed
by women is done in self-defence or is retaliatory.

In fact, if these issues are taken into account, research consistently finds that violence is overwhelmingly perpetrated by men against women and levels are consistent with data of reports from the police. This is supported by data from the Crown Prosecution Service that shows that across the five years between 2007/8 and 2011/12 93.4% of those convicted for crimes relating to domestic violence were men."