Public-sector strike: does it get your support? Please vote in our Facebook poll

[HelenMumsnet]

Morning.

We'd love to know how you feel about Wednesday's public-sector strike action. Does it get your support - or not?

We've put up a little poll on our Facebook page to help us find out. Please do click and vote.

Thanks v much, MNHQ

Well here we are with a considered view. These public sector workers who only have jobs because those of us who generate the wealth of this nation choose to generate it are very lucky we pay their wages and pensions at all.

I think we can leave it all to be said by he who sayeth what others are too PC to say...

Are you in manufacturing, Xenia?

talkinpeace

30 years of paid pension? where on earth are you getting your stats? Because they are wrong.

Pensions are currently worked out on a maximum benefit period of 20 years.

They have discovered that people who retire early (before 60 currently) live much longer than those who work either to or past 60 - hence the quite large actuarial reduction in your pension if you take early retirement in the PS now. By the same token, the longer you work past 60 the earlier you are likely to die (statistically).

So to get a full pension today you will have to have had contributions paid in for at least 40 years.This is now rising to 47 years as part of these changes.

I personally will have to work for 50 years before I will be able to draw a non actuarialy (sp?) reduced pension (following these changes).

Nothing wrong with being opinionated but do make sure that your facts are correct.

malaka
my grandfather retired at 65 : he is now 99 : so his index linked pension has been paid for rather more than 20 years

what do you mean by pensions are worked out on a "maximum benefit period of 20 years"?
that phrase does not appear in the HCC LGPS Annual report that is on my desk

the increment for different pensions is different sometimes 1/80th, sometimes 1/60th
and early retirement is fine - so long as it actually means it. One of the HUGE problems with the public sector is that it is possible to take early retirement and then go straight back to work for the same organisation in another post.

Do you know how long I would have to work to get a pension worth 50% of my final salary?
Around 200 years - because any scheme I pay into is defined contribution and they have shrunk in the last 10 years.

Anyone familiar with the 'Change Curve' graph? To me, this is what I see happening across the country - a lot of people at the 'Denial' or 'Anger' stage. I think it's clouding the Union's judgement and approach.

See an example here - click on the diagram. (The accompanying narrative doesn't directly translate to the pension debate, but you'll get the gist).

I actually the real root problem is an awful lot of people don't understand basic maths. Sad but true. The government don't understand the basic maths of the breadline, the unions don't understand pensions maths as far as I can tell since they have made so many factually incorrect statements. It's all a great big mess. But there may be more pressing problems anyway, when the Euro collapses. I strongly suspect there will very soon come a time when unions are begging for the previous deal but it will be off the table. :(

HEAR HEAR

I support, unequivocally, the right of any worker to withdraw her or his labour in protest about anything they like. I also support the right of anyone, even Jeremy Clarkson, to say on national television anything they like about it. And I hope everyone here supports my right to not agree with them.

Yes, freedom of speech is very important and the right to withdraw labour.

Times are going to get much harder and I doubt we can easily afford the new deal the unions are rejecting but we can go with it for now.

Rofl at new deal. It's a ruse.

inhibernation...I'm afraid I stopped listening to the point when the public sector workers, metaphorically speaking, grabbed us by throat, distressed our disabled child and took much needed money out of our pockets yesterday. You took the choice to not to work yesterday..striking public sector workers, whether they be parents or not, considered their positions, and then decided what action to take. Where was our choice in all this? We paid for the ramifications of your decision yesterday both emotionally and financially. I have not heard one apology, publicly given, from the public sector, for the grief caused....even if you felt it a neccessary action. All I've heard are threats that it will happen again. I suggest you listen to your union bosses on tv and the strong retoric they are using and then tell me that the aim was not to cause extreme distruption. Try telling someone why their urgently needed hip or knee replacement was postponed for the sake of your cause leaving them in pain for even longer.

Like I said, there was minimal disruption for my patients. Most people were aware there was a strike coming - not sure why you were not informed.

But really it's pointless having this discussion when your view is so fixed. You made some sweeping statements and assumptions and when I countered them your answer was to respond with dramatic metaphors.

Is it not important to you that the specialist teachers who educate and care for your child are sufficiently valued in terms of their remuneration package? Teachers negotiated new terms fairly recently and now they are being shafted. Other than striking, how else can they protect their terms and conditions? You entrust your child to them on a regular basis - I find it weird that you are so hostile tbh.

And I make that point with the firm knowledge that I would support the nursery staff at my dds privately run nursery if they went on strike to defend their t&c - nothing to do with my public sector job but everything to do with acknowledging the fantastic work they do looking after my daughter who needs a bit more care and planning because she has CP.

inhibernation
but you know as well as I that the staff at a privately run nursery would never go on strike because they would be sacked.
I live in Southampton. Our Bin Men were on strike / work to rule for 5 months - but we got no reduction in the amount we paid for a non existent service.
Only the public sector gets away with that now.

And PLEASE, do not bring the bankers into this. The Pension time bomb (as was said by somebody up the thread) predates Northern Rock by about 20 years but the last Government was too cowardly to deal with it.

As I say : If you are putting 20% of your wages aside for a pension but expecting 50% back, where does the extra 30% come from?

But if they did I would. Think you are missing my point.

The fact that you didn't get a reduction in your council tax is the fault of the senior government officials - not the bin men.

I think it comes from the 25% of us who are net contributors. The other 75% take more out than they put in. Trouble is there is getting less and less from us because of the recession and times are hard so the 3 people each onoe of us who are net contributors have on our shoulders are not going to be supported as well as they have done.

Completely support it. (Not interested in having facebook)

I always thought of a pension scheme being a savings scheme for when you are a senior citizen, so if i was paying it into a bank, i wouldnt suddenly start paying in a load more money, to be told i would have to pay for longer, but get less at the end. It doesnt make sense. I get what the government is trying to do, but maybe they should look at the mp's and bankers salaries and maybe take them down a peg or two. Then the economy might be helped. For crying out load, we are allowing the bankers to get tens of thousands of pounds bonuses for letting the banks go bankrupt. I assume if i go bankrupt i wont get tens of thousands (though wouldnt mind if they did) So yes 100% support. Do you think we should all strike in effort? the government would have to listen, especially if its kept PEACEFUL. X

talkinpeace - your grandad isn't average, he has in fact lived for about 20 years longer than the average man in the UK.

I am talking Public Sector - but I understand that the expected average life span post retirement is always around 20 years - and the average time a pension is paid is 20 years.

And actually 80 is a good age to live too and many people die in their 70's. I have had a number of colleagues who have only lived months after retirement. They balance out people like your grandad who are the minority.

Ellen
you are right about what a pension scheme is
but the maths was that you worked for 40 years and were retired for 10-15
so the amount paid in equalled the amount paid out
BUT
as life expectancy extended but working lives did not, more and more was paid out but no more paid in

its more like those precipice bonds that kept paying out "interest" without making it clear that they were ripping into capital to do so

talkinpeace - again your facts are wrong:

'but the last Government was too cowardly to deal with it.'

They had already changed the redundancy scheme for the Civil Service and were starting to look at pensions.

malaka
my grandad is unusual to be nearly 100
my granny only lived to 96, her two sisters to 94 and 95 respectively, my two grandfathers only to 90 and 91
statistically, once people make it to 70 they are OFTEN living to over 90 now.

(talkin is going to live forever!)

stats to back up my point to malaka
www.direct.gov.uk/en/Nl1/Newsroom/DG_064889
reverse.org/r/more/life-expectancy/

Actually a lot of my work is privately funded, Xenia. That's increasingly the case for a lot of academics. You are very quick to make assumptions about things you have no real knowledge of.

On the other hand, the taxpayer had to see to a fair bit of your initial legal training for you, directly or indirectly.

Similarly my taxes have subsidised your children's university education.