MNHQ .. Can we talk about disability bashing?

[Brownsugarshortbread]

Over the years i have posted on and enjoyed MN.
Sadly there seems to be a growing culture of it being okay to have a go at disabilities, those who claim DLA and those who's children have 'invisable' disabilities such as ADHD and ADD.
The terms 'freak' and 'scrounger' have been batted around and comments from some posters IMO certainly boarder on harrassment and discrimination.

When certain posts or posters have been reported, some have been removed, yet a lot haven't.

And while I agree with free speech, these types of comment or reaction to these comments, are not an education for those bigoted posters. Nor do those whose lives are touched by disability wish to be used to educate those posters.

Disability Harassment

is unwanted behaviour based on disability,
impairment or additional need. Such behaviour may include comments that are patronising or objectionable to the recipient or which creates an intimidating, hostile or offensive environment for people with disabilities. Disability harassment includes inappropriate reference to disability, unwelcome discussion of the impact of disability, refusal to work with and exclusion of people with disabilities from social events or meetings.

It's like groundhog day, isn't it? How many of these threads have we had now? And nothing's really changed.

If they can put a new biscuit on or a glass of wine on for us to use, because it's a nice thing to do.. Why can't they just take a zero tollerance on derogatory 'ism' terms and posting?

" MN would like to let all members know that from here on in, we have a zero tollerence on xxx 'ism' terms used in posting. While we welcome and encourage debate and freedom of speech. If 'ism' terms are used the poster will be warned and then banned if they continue to use such terminology. This keeps us in line with the equalities act 2010 and make MN a happier place to post" etc etc etc and words of that type of effect.

Not difficult really is it?

I believe it is the Equality Commission that deals with breaches of the act.

There's 2 issues here I think and the 2 always get conflated when this or similar discussion arises:

1. Offensive posts. We do allow people to cause offence on MN - if we deleted every post people that was found offensive we'd be deleting an awful lot of posts. At times people can be thoughtless, and rude, and ignorant without us (necessarily) deleting what they say. We believe (on the whole) in the benefits of discussion and argument more than censorship. Where someone is genuinely asking a question/trying to work out what the appropriate response is, it would be strange to disallow a conversation. Plenty of folks over the years have commented that they've seen things completely differently because of discussions like these. That is a good thing.

That said there are, of course, limits. There are plenty of comments that we do and will delete for being simply downright nasty and/or illegal.

1. Disablist posts and the contention that we are less likely to delete disablist posts than racist/homophobic ones. As I posted earlier I just don't think this is the case - it's certainly not intentional. As I mentioned earlier in the past we have not deleted discussions such as "AIBU for being concerned that my (white) child is in a that is 80% non white school?" and "Is it wrong of me to be worried that my child might be gay?", despite some Mnetters reporting them and thinking we should.

(As a small aside I do find the notion that we at MNHQ are institutionally disablist somewhat bizarre given that (in partnership with the MN SN community) we have put an awful lot of our focus on developing content and working on campaigns in this area.)

@Shoesytwoesy

oh yes mn hq your stance on educating is working so well.....

"The thing about these woolly liberals is that when it boils down to it, they are often quite nasty pieces of work. Always quick to point the finger, desperate to catch people out for saying the so-called wrong thing and deeply antagonistic towards anybody who dares to questions whether their way is the right way. They think they can bully people into not using certain terms or words when they have decided that such terms are now offensive. Anybody who doesnt speak how they want is accused of being a racist or what-not. It's quite pathetic really."

last post at the moment on the thread you deem so important it has to stay....
so now anyone who is offended by the word is a bully or a wooly liberal....

hmmmm this educating doesn't wrok does it, the thread just gets more offensive,

Well, I always say you can find a post on MN to back up pretty much any argument you want to make - the media does that all the time - but it doesn't make your argument true! It's no more reasonable to expect everyone to be reasonable on here, than in everyday life, IMHO. But broadly, sharing experiences do have an effect. I absolutely know to be the case this from the amt of posters who've told me that MN has transformed the way they judge other parents, particularly those parents who have children with special needs.

Justine, just out of interest, roughly how many posters need to report a post as offensive before you will consider removing it? Obviously one isn't enough - would 10 be enough? 20? How many? Even if you think it contributes to the discussion (which plenty of people on here are rather sick of) - surely if there is sufficient weight against a post it merits deletion?

Just how patronising?

just caught up....

question is how many threads are disabalist? really? i spend a fair bit of time here and i can truly find more threads that have offended me for other reasons than that - maybe i dont see them or something?

the thread in question, that was linked to, ive read. it seems fairly clear that the OP did not mean that all disabled people are freaks, more that the media use the latest "ist" to garner ratings - however ill judged that was. she did try to explain and apologise. i think that should stand. i understood her point.

if i ever see a post, about anything, that i truly find offensive, i report it (mnhq can verify this!)
that may be for any number of reasons, offensive can means anything.
my son is 19.
i have fought since his diagnosis at age 7 for him, in every single aspect of his life, to get his condition understood and accepted. I dont think i have a thicker skin, but i do take posts, and views, in context. If something is truly offensive to me i would report it in a heartbeat. It would be reactionary to report every single post that uses a word that i dislike, without looking at the intention behind the post.
if something is posted simply to offend, then i would report.
if something is misguided, i would rather attempt to explain what my own experiences have been, and hope the poster might be reasoned with. How can you ever hope to educate people by shouted "DISCRIMINATION" and having them banned? life isnt like that is it, oh how i wish!! just ban them! ban the teachers who have no concept about why your childs literal interpretation isnt rude....ban the parents who dont invite your child to parities....doesnt work like that though does it? my life would have been a lot easier had it been, jeez the tears that would have saved me and my boy.

my son is 19, he has aspergers, dyspraxia and dyslexia, in the last 2 years he has been physically assaulted 3 times. i am a police officer. i have made it my job to put it right if he has been wronged (it hasnt always been easy, we havent always won the battle, but when we do, its worth it.and i do feel we are winning the war, he is a success.He knows his worth.) if you think i am a bleeding heart liberal then you so dont know me. but i do feel my priorities are right.

i do not think that simply banning a poster for using a word like' freakshow' is right. education is the key. argue and educate and use the law by all means, but dont use it hysterically, people will just switch off.

(Glitta, you're not talking to me there, are you? Pretty sure you're not but just checking...)

well and truly fobbed off

I think there are two problems here, needing two different solutions.

Firstly, the offensive comments backed by prejudiced sentiments. These range from the truly disgusting 'xxxxxx shouldn't be allowed to live in society' etc., to the milder 'oh, loosen up, it's only a word'. These need to be reported when seen and addressed by MNHQ. Obviously it seems from this thread that some clarity and reassessment of the way these comments are dealt with is needed.

Secondly, the posters who, sometimes unwittingly, use terms that many other posters and most of the general public find offensive. I can see how it might be possible, if someone grew up in a time when 'retard' was a word bandied about the playground as easily as 'poobum' or 'wally', and there was a Spastics Society collection box outside every post office, and they hadn't come across anybody with SN, or happened to read anything that might re-educate themselves, that they just might not realise how horrible these words are. I wonder if it might be an idea for MNHQ to somewhere have a list of all these words, including racist, homophobic etc words and phrases, so people can make sure they don't unintentionally offend. I'm not sure I know what all the words are myself.

I agree with most of that cattleprod. I have always believed intent is everything. I have had a nice older lady say " oh bless, i s he retarded?" and I have had "special needs" sneered at me.

Which is why it is so complicated.
But the measure for me is not individual words used but rather an atmosphere where anyone upset is told to get over it, stop being sensitive.

I used to get upset but rarely now. I think the endless threads where people argued that fucktard is fine and you can't be the word police got dull and I realised that some people live their lives through the eyes of a somewhat stupid 8 year old boy - fart jokes and retards , all really funny
My broad view is that they can use spastic if they like, it allows me to see that they are a twat without the need to chat with them further.

But to pretend that there is no low level abuse going on is not sensible and as damaging as reacting hysterically to every slight.

The current buzzword is "professionally offended" which was probably witty the first time it was used but now is simply "I will say what I like and if I upset you I have a means by which you can now be sneered at too"

It is that atmosphere which encourages people to post things like ' pag, why do you have your son on your profile when it is obvious he has special needs"

I worked in an entirely male environment for my 20s . Of course I had to pick my battles or life would have been intolerable. But pretending that 'get the coffees in love, you know where the kitchen is" is only ever just banter and was never used as a way of trying to undermine and ridicule me would be dim.
A proportion of the people laughing along because it is just a joke, why are you over reacting , are deeply unpleasant and that is there conduit.

and yup mnhq have forgotten if membe rof public was to refer to someone as spastic , retard ,freak ,mong in the context that some poster use it is actual crimnal offence just ask my former neighbour .And yes some may not realise that reatrd is offensive and they do feel bad about upset they may ahve caused .But lets be honest as much as 80% (being genrours on here)on here know exactley about those words being offensive and wrong

He now has a police caution on record for going on about my dc being a retard to other people ,not even to his face

thumbwitch, no, not you

Intent is everything. Are you seriously saying that the posts on the DLA thread were not deliberately designed to upset me, to offend and inflame? Of course they were.

Any one of you, would you not grow tired of CONTINUOUSLY having to justify your very existence? Deal with people who allude that your babies are only fit for the gas chamber?

A line has to be drawn to show people that this kind of posting is just as abhorrent as racism, sexism, homophobia.

i agree with vicarinatutu. the poster who mentioned 'freakshows' was not being disablist.

that was an unfortunate thread, i think, because had she returned quickly to say 'no no no! THIS is what i meant' (and been put straight about the fact that she was talking about the wrong show) it would never have descended. but by the time she came back she was utterly (some might even say bizarrely) entrenched in a defensive position and decided to fight back in a peculiarly patronising manner.

so i would be inclined to discount that particular thread, i think, as a one-off bit of weirdness. she was trying to speak controversially, but not with the intention of offending parents of children with disabilites. but of course it is not surprising, given the strength of her words and the lack of further posts, that she was otherwise interpreted.

however i was surprised that HQ deleted her comment, i guess it was because it looked like she wasn't going to come back.

don't know anything about retard, spaz-type language on here, i haven't seen it. but they are not 'just words' imo. nor is lezza, however chummily it is used. i lose all respect INSTANTLY if i see posters using them, and they go on my mental spreadsheet under 'ignore'.

there was an interesting threa here about a woman ordering a 'chinkie'. does anyone remember that? what was the outcome? it's not a word i'd use but i'd argue that the woman really did not wish to cause offence AT ALL. was her post deleted? i can't recall.

thing is, len, if the normal rules were applied then the freakshow post wouldn't have been deleted imo. look at the pasting that girl got who said that the woman off eastenders had been heading for a fall by pronouncing on all matters domestic (it had been in the news that she had been beaten up by her boyfriend, poor soul).

it was clear to me that the poster meant no harm whatsoever to the person (whose name i have forgotten for some reason, she played sonia, and i LOVED her on strictly) but was kinda commenting on celebrity hubris and how it plays out in the media. but there was a 100s-strong chorus of disapproval about how she was saying that somehow natalie cassidy (THAT's the name) 'deserved it'. but she actually said no such thing so i presume on those grounds the post was let stand.

yes well of course my instinct is to say 'zap 'em' but look at the freakshow poster... so many people were absolutely convinced that she was trolling. i think this is tricky territory, tbh. that and the natalie cassidy thread, just recently, have been imo clear (if understandable in the freakshow case) misinterpretations of the actual post and have snow-balled into quite the movement. this whole post is inspired by the freakshow thread, iirc.

also there was a new thread last night that someone started in order to scold HQ, they posted about the rape thread, saying that because posts had been allowed to stand that were distinctly 'off' in tone (and they really were) that MNHQ should 'be ashamed of itself'. i mean ffs. the whole POINT of MN is that it isn't peppered with deletions. we are not netmums, bounty et al, we can all have our say on here. i worry that shaming HQ into acting more often might be counter-productive. (especially when, imho, the MN massive is getting it wrong more and more. )

Talking to the police earlier (i not been a bad lady) and they said disability hate crime is on the rise fuelled by attacks on disabled people in the media and radio and wotnot. Its the 'underclass' its now acceptable to beat up on.

A variation of godwins law here but the path to the gas chambers started with name calling. It escalated (taking away money, supoort, see the pattern) when no one did anything. Im not saying we are heading for anything as awful as that but things are getting unpleasant for disabled people on a street level and a state level. And people are cheering that those 'entitled' disabled people with their free cars and special bays are getting all their free money taken away. The scroungers.
Even the boys school, while suspending pupils for racist comments, do nothing about disablist terms apart from bleat 'its not meant like that' when kids use retard. I am planning to chisel the disability hate laws into a large block and shove it up the Heads bum. Might do the trick.