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See all MNHQ comments on this thread

MNHQ .. Can we talk about disability bashing?

921 replies

Brownsugarshortbread · 05/06/2011 23:58

Over the years i have posted on and enjoyed MN.
Sadly there seems to be a growing culture of it being okay to have a go at disabilities, those who claim DLA and those who's children have 'invisable' disabilities such as ADHD and ADD.
The terms 'freak' and 'scrounger' have been batted around and comments from some posters IMO certainly boarder on harrassment and discrimination.

When certain posts or posters have been reported, some have been removed, yet a lot haven't.

And while I agree with free speech, these types of comment or reaction to these comments, are not an education for those bigoted posters. Nor do those whose lives are touched by disability wish to be used to educate those posters.

Disability Harassment

is unwanted behaviour based on disability,
impairment or additional need. Such behaviour may include comments that are patronising or objectionable to the recipient or which creates an intimidating, hostile or offensive environment for people with disabilities. Disability harassment includes inappropriate reference to disability, unwelcome discussion of the impact of disability, refusal to work with and exclusion of people with disabilities from social events or meetings.

OP posts:
Peachy · 07/06/2011 17:21

My ASD ds3 gets called a Spas now a lot as well, by both strangers (oh I almost lost my MN sweetie pie Crown on one particular occasion when a Mum urged her chidlren to 'walk like that spas' (ds3 is loose limbed so floppy, I guess, somewhat ironically).
And friends of the family, a visitor even whom I was looking after for a day for his Mum who was working.

Even I hate to say it ds1. Who is Sn himself. Makes me swear.

RogerMelly · 07/06/2011 17:25

I blame the Tory government.

I recently received a letter through the post aboput my childs transport to and from school. My child happens to have a severe and complex learning disability, autism, chronic epilepsy, cerebral palsy and scoliosis. I was told in this letter that tender had been sent out to get new quotes and the last paragraph stressed that we should bear in mind that they 'were trying to save taxpayers money' Hmm

There was no mention in the letter about the quality of the transport, any safety issues or whether changes made to vulnerable children and adults current transport would have a detrimental affect on their quality of life. No we should consider the taxpayer Hmm

AND I AM ONE THANKS VERY MUCH Angry

Peachy · 07/06/2011 17:32

Yes, this whole taxpayer things rankles doesn't it?

Er yes dear politicians everyone is a taxpayer to some extent, whether income tax or other taxes. ANd most os us have a working person in the home anyway.

But I don;t think it does save monmey: it just shoves it around. Changing transport for an ASD kid can shove them into trauma meaning more education costs, more SW input, more chance of a SAHM carer being needed.....

short sighted claptrap.

working9while5 · 07/06/2011 17:39

AnnieOnAMapleLeaf, you ask why MN would not stand for racist comments or homophobic comments - so why should diablist comments be allowed?
This is why??.. i think

pandora?s vox: on community in cyberspace
by humdog (1994)
when i went into cyberspace i went into it thinking that it was a place like any other place and that it would be a human interaction like any other human interaction. i was wrong when i thought that.

it is fashionable to suggest that cyberspace is some kind of island of the blessed where people are free to indulge and express their Individuality. some people write about cyberspace as though it were a 60′s utopia. in reality, this is not true. major online services, like compuserv and america online, regular guide and censor discourse. even some allegedly free-wheeling (albeit politically correct) boards like the WELL censor discourse. the difference is only a matter of the method and degree. what interests me about this, however, is that to the mass, the debate about freedom of expression exists only in terms of whether or not you can say fuck or look at sexually explicit pictures. i have a quaint view that makes me think that discussing the ability to write ?fuck? or worrying about the ability to look at pictures of sexual acts constitutes The Least Of Our Problems surrounding freedom of expression.

?... almost every discussion in cyberspace, about cyberspace, boils down to some sort of debate about Truth-In-Packaging.

cyberspace is a mostly a silent place. in its silence it shows itself to be an expression of the mass. one might question the idea of silence in a place where millions of user-ids parade around like angels of light, looking to see whom they might, so to speak, consume. the silence is nonetheless present and it is most present, paradoxically at the moment that the user-id speaks. when the user-id posts to a board, it does so while dwelling within an illusion that no one is present. language in cyberspace is a frozen landscape.

i have seen many people spill their guts on-line, and i did so myself until, at last, i began to see that i had commodified myself. commodification means that you turn something into a product which has a money-value. in the nineteenth century, commodities were made in factories, which karl marx called ?the means of production.? capitalists were people who owned the means of production, and the commodities were made by workers who were mostly exploited. i created my interior thoughts as a means of production for the corporation that owned the board i was posting to, and that commodity was being sold to other commodity/consumer entities as entertainment. that means that i sold my soul like a tennis shoe and i derived no profit from the sale of my soul. people who post frequently on boards appear to know that they are factory equipment and tennis shoes, and sometimes trade sends and email about how their contributions are not appreciated by management.

proponents of so-called cyber-communities rarely emphasize the economic, business-mind nature of the community: many cyber-communities are businesses that rely upon the commodification of human interaction. they market their businesses by appeal to hysterical identification and fetishism no more or less than the corporations that brought us the two hundred dollar athletic shoe. proponents of cyber- community do not often mention that these conferencing systems are rarely culturally or ethnically diverse, although they are quick to embrace the idea of cultural and ethnic diversity. they rarely address the whitebread demographics of cyberspace except when these demographics conflict with the upward-mobility concerns of white, middle class females under the rubric of orthodox academic Feminism.

i give you an example: the WELL, a conferencing system based in Sausalito, California, is often touted as an example of a ?social cluster? in cyberspace. originally part of the Point Foundation, which is also associated with the Whole Earth Review and the Whole Earth Catalogues, the WELL occupies an interesting niche in the electronic-community marketplace. it markets itself as a conferencing system for the literate, bookish and creative individual. it markets itself as an agent for social change, and it is, in reality, calvinist and more than a little green. the WELL is also afflicted with an old fashioned hippie aura that lead to some remarkably touching ideas about society and culture. no one, by the way, should kid themselves that the WELL is any different than bigger services like America OnLine or Prodigy?all of these outfits are businesses and all of these services are owned by large corporations. the WELL is just, by reason of clunky interface, a little bit less obvious about it.

in july of 1993, in a case that received national media coverage, a man?s reputation was destroyed on the WELL, by WELLpeople, because he had dared to have a relationship with more than one woman at the same time, and because he did not conform to WELL social protocol. i will not say that he did not conform to ethical standards, because i believe that the ethic of truthfulness in cyberspace is sometimes such as to render the word ethics meaningless. in cyberspace, for example, identity can be an art-form. but the issues held within the topic, called News 1290,(now archived) were very complex and spoke to the heart of the problem of cyberspace: the desire to invest the simulacrum with the weight of reality.

the women involved in 1290 accepted the attention of the man simultaneously on several levels: most importantly, they believed in the reality of his sign and invested it with meaning. they made love to his sign and there is no doubt that the relationship affected them and that they felt pain and distress when it ended badly. at the same time it appears that the man involved did not invest their signs with the same meaning that they had his, and it is also clear that all parties did not discuss their perceptions of one another. consequently the miscommunication that occurred was ascribed to the man?s exploitation of the women he was involved with, and a conclusion was made that he had used them as sexual objects. the women, for their parts, were comfortable in the role of victim and so the games began. of the hundreds of voices heard in this topic, only a very few were astute enough to express the idea that the events had been in actuality caused more by the medium than by the persons who suffered the consequences of the events. persons of that view addressed the ideas of ?missing cues? like body language, tone of voice, and physical appearance. none of this, they said, is present in cyberspace, and so people create unrealistic images of the Other. these opinions were in the minority, though. most people made suggestions that would have shocked the organizers of the Reign of Terror. even the words ?thought criminal? were used and suggestions about lynching were made.

in october of 1994, couples topic 163 was opened. in this topic, user Z came on to discuss her marital problems, which involved a daughter who was emotionally disturbed. it began in a very ordinary way for this type of thing, with the woman asking for and receiving advice about what to do. in just a few days, though, the situation escalated, and the woman put another voice on the wire, who was alleged to be her daughter, X. the alleged daughter exposed her problems and expressed her feelings about them, and the problems appeared to be life-threatening. this seemed to set something off within the conference, and a real orgy began as voices began to appear to express their identification with the mysterious and troubled daughter X. the nature of the identifications and the tone of the posts became stranger and stranger and finally user Z set the frightening crown upon the whole situation by posting a twistedly lyrical monologue of maternal comfort and consolation directed at the virtual Inner Children who had appeared to take refuge within her soft, enveloping arms. the more that the Inner Children wept, the more that the Virtual Mommy lyricized and comforted. this spectacle, which horrified more than one trained mental health professional who read it on the WELL, went on and on for several days and was discussed privately in several places in disbelieving tones. when the topic imploded, the Virtual Mommy withdrew reluctantly insisting that only a barbarian would believe that she would commodify her own tragedy.

one of the interesting things about both of these incidents, to me, is that they were expunged from the record. News1290 exists in archive. that means that it is stored in an electronic cabinet, sort of like what the Vatican did with the transcripts of the trial of Galileo. it?s there, but you have to look for it, and mention of 1290 makes WELLpeople nervous. Couples 163 was killed. that means it was destroyed, and does not exist at all anymore, except on back- up tape or in the hard disks of those persons (like me) who downloaded it for their own reasons. what i am getting at here is that electronic community is a commercial enterprise that dovetails nicely with the increasing trend towards dehumanization in our society: it wants to commodify human interaction, enjoy the spectacle regardless of the human cost. if and when the spectacle proves incovenient or alarming, it engages in creative history like, like any good banana republic

LeninGrad · 07/06/2011 17:43

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nicevideoshameaboutthesong · 07/06/2011 17:47

i promised myself i'd keep my head down, but i have to say that it seems pretty inconsistent, in fact incoherent and downright nonsensical for HQ to ban you without warning for saying anything against the McCanns but its ok for people to use mng and spz because it is an educational opportunity ???

The McCanns can stand up for themselves. But the disabled frequently cannot.

What a travesty.

Mouseface · 07/06/2011 17:51

Great post Smile

AitchTwoOh · 07/06/2011 17:58

did not know that was where spastic came from, i had assumed that the terms cp and spastic were interchangeable because of the spastic society. thanks for putting me straight.

i am a good bit more persuaded, having read the way that thread went, that she was up for a wind-up, and should get at least an email from MN about it. do think that HQ could asterisk titles as well, that wouldn't cause outrage i reckon.

and re the poof thread, isn't the point that it shouldn't be up to a gay person to go and be cross at them? we should ALL do it, if we think it is unnacceptable. i fight shy of these things now after the very personal kicking i took over the inalienable right to have cunt names.

Lougle · 07/06/2011 18:03

I think the whole direction of this thread is misleading people. The debate is centering on what is 'offensive' and whether people's 'offence' is enough to warrant moderation.

It's a non-debate. The LAW protects people with disabilities and their associates from disablist words and actions.

It is MNHQ's duty to comply with the LAW.

Mumsnet belongs to Justine and her partner(s). They can run the site as they see fit. As long as it complies with the law

I believe, IIRC, that the whole SWMNBN debacle came to be because MN were deemed to be Publishers.

As publishers, MNHQ have to ensure that their materials comply with the LAW.

So, whether they want to be radical, risque, free or censorless, they have a duty to comply with the law.

They seem to have got that quite nicely with defamation and libel. They seem to have got that with Race and Sexual Discrimination.

MNHQ - You need to get the idea that you as publishers need to comply with the Equality Act.

AitchTwoOh · 07/06/2011 18:14

that's easy when they are clear-cut, but the cases that are problematic are a. someone ostensibly expressing disapproval of the term and b. someone speaking up in a crass fashion about the exploitation of disabled children by television.

LeninGrad · 07/06/2011 18:16

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LeninGrad · 07/06/2011 18:17

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Lougle · 07/06/2011 18:18

Well....then let's use relevant examples:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/_chat/1231140-JUST-STOP-IT-YOU-MORONS-OR-I-FLOUNCE

""Moron" was coined in 1910 by psychologist Henry H. Goddard[3] from the Ancient Greek word μωρός (moros), which meant "dull"[4] (as opposed to "sharp"), and used to describe a person with a mental age in adulthood of between 8 and 12 on the Binet scale.[5] It was once applied to people with an IQ of 51-70, being superior in one degree to "imbecile" (IQ of 26-50) and superior in two degrees to "idiot" (IQ of 0-25). The word moron, along with others including, "idiotic," "imbecilic," "stupid," and "feeble-minded," was formerly considered a valid descriptor in the psychological community, but it is now deprecated in use by psychologists.[6]"

I reported that thread. I don't think it is ambiguous. I don't think it is hard to see how it is disablist. I have even quoted the above to MNHQ in my reporting post.

Has it been deleted? Nope. Have I had the courtesy of even a 'holding mail' to acknowledge my report? Nope.

LeninGrad · 07/06/2011 18:19

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AitchTwoOh · 07/06/2011 18:20

did you happen to see what swc posted to me earlier, lougle?

lenin they weren't clear cut, not until the spastic thread had run on a bit, and the WRONG decision was made in deleting the freakshow one.

LeninGrad · 07/06/2011 18:20

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LeninGrad · 07/06/2011 18:21

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LeninGrad · 07/06/2011 18:23

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nicevideoshameaboutthesong · 07/06/2011 18:29

also, why does HQ consider it disgusting to speculate on the whereabouts of one almost-4 year old girl, but its educational to be disablist??

One is clearly against the law, the other isnt.

Threadworm8 · 07/06/2011 18:31

Lougle, do you think that using "idiotic," "imbecilic," "stupid," and "feeble-minded" is offensive in the same way as using "moron", since they have all in the past been used to designate people with learning disabilities? Or do you think language moves on? I certainly wouldn't think it was offensive to use "moron", any more than I would call a scientist a "natural philosopher" as they used to be known.

LeninGrad · 07/06/2011 18:33

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Lougle · 07/06/2011 18:34

I didn't, Aitch, but I have read back.

What I would say, is that language does evolve. It is true that people sometimes use words without knowing their meaning or origin. But that doesn't stop those words being inappropriate. It also doesn't absolve the individual, nor the publisher, from responsibility.

'Ignorance is no defence in the law' or somesuch phrase.

The law is the law. The moment the publisher is made aware of the meaning of a word, and that the use of the word is in contravention of the law, they need to take decisive action.

For example, SWMNBN centred around one phrase. Now, it certainly wasn't intended to be more than banter. The poster in question probably took less than 30 seconds to type it. BUT once SWMNBN became aware of it, MNHQ were dragged to a legal battle.

I have been horrified by some words I have used in ignorance. I had no idea, for example, of the origin of 'Handicap'.

Another example:

We've established that the use of the shortened form of Pakistani is offensive and racist. As soon as someone used that phrase to generalise about members of the Pakistani population, MNHQ would delete it. Even if the poster didn't know it was Racist.

This is no different.

If I share an opinion that I find something offensive, then MNHQ can say 'hide the thread'.

However, if I give a reference to the origin of a word, that clearly puts it in 'disablist' territory, I would expect MNHQ to respond to the law that protects my daughter, and her associates - in this case me.

LeninGrad · 07/06/2011 18:34

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Threadworm8 · 07/06/2011 18:37

No lenin, spastic is clearly offensive,

TheFlyingOnion · 07/06/2011 18:39

wow I don't think I've ever seen anything "disabilist" on MN.

do you mean people calling each other names? I wouldn't say calling some stupid, an idiot or a moron is disabilist!

In fact, most of the time everyone is pussyfooting like mad around the issue - "oh don't slag off someone's spelling, they might be dyslexic!" "my child's friend isn't naughty he might be ADD!"

am surprised

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