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See all MNHQ comments on this thread

recent decision by MNHQ

508 replies

NetworkGuy · 02/02/2011 23:33

Please, MNHQ, do have a read of this thread and consult your Tech people so they can give you the answers as to whether your support for this campaign and the Minister's plans are worth going on with.

I would hope you not only reverse your position but assuming you get sufficient technical reasoning in 'Plain English', that you go public and explain how unworkable the proposal is likely to be. I feel sure journalists at Computer Weekly and Computing will be able to provide confirmation that filtering is a hiding to nothing and can be very costly because of the millions of GB of data flowing through the bigger ISP networks.

For anyone baffled, and wondering if I'm a nut case, this concerns a proposal to get ISPs to "filter out" all porn, unless a customer "opts in". For numerous technical reasons the idea is never likely to achieve filtering without blocking access to legitimate sites or not blocking access to better than say 95% reliable, thus making it a costly exercise in futility, while parental vigilance and filtering software at the home would still be essential for peace of mind.

(Incidentally the wording of the campaign page implies the parents need to ask, at the same time as someone wanting not to have censored content needs to ask - it is one or other, but not both that would need to contact ISP. )

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BaroqueAroundTheClock · 04/02/2011 16:44

I would yes - but others maybe not.

Let me give you an example (my poor BF again Grin).

She was inserting pictures into a powerpoint slide show she was doing (a very basic one). She told me that it told her the image was too large and if she wanted to insert then it would be compressed and the quality possibly reduced. She didn't know what it meant, so she cancelled, tried again, got the same message, so gave up and didn't use the image she wanted in the end.

There is no way she would install anything on her computer, or play around with programmes that no-one had sat down and shown her. She's simply too scared to mess around with settings etc incase something goes wrong and she doesn't know how to undo it.

THAT is how little many parents know about how to use/utilise their computers.

BaroqueAroundTheClock · 04/02/2011 16:45

Lennin - a lot of people still don't use anti virus and security updates now......

I can testify to that having had to removed 9 tojan horses from the church laptop (which is passed around various people who need to use it).

Motherfunster · 04/02/2011 17:22

@Networkguy, I have a feeling that MNHQ relise now they have been sold a pup.

I?m glad to see that some really good idea?s as to the solution has been sited on this thread today. A booklet with CD of prebundled open source soft wear with step by step guide is an excellent one.

An ongoing live thread with the likes of networkguy on MN would add one part to the need to keep up with the constantly evolving state of thing.

Someone posted earlier that the Australian trial worked well, I thinking that?s a extremely subjective way of looking at it.

I?m going to apologies now for a ridiculously long post this will be, but it?s the Wikipedia entry on the Australian Communications and Media Authority who were involved with the trial block , I think it makes for interesting reading.

"Since January 2000, internet content considered offensive or illegal has been subject to a statutory scheme administered by the ACMA...... The regulator has been criticised for its role in examining internet censorship in Australia and how it is enabled and might further be enabled.

Particular criticism has been leveled at the regulator's technical understanding of what is involved overall in internet regulation and censorship

On 10 March 2009, the ACMA issued the Australian web-hosting company, Bulletproof Networks, with an "interim link-deletion notice" due to its customer, the Whirlpool internet community website, not deleting a link to a page on an anti-abortion web site.

The web page, which is the 6th of a series of pages featuring images of aborted foetuses, had been submitted to the ACMA, who determined it was potential prohibited content, by the user whose post on Whirlpool containing the ACMA's reply was later subject to the link-deletion notice.[5] This came with an $11,000 per day fine if the take down was not actioned after 24 hours. In order for other URLs contained on the same website to be 'prohibited', a separate complaint would need to be submitted and reviewed by the ACMA.[citation needed]
[edit] ACMA blacklist leaked

On 19 March 2009 it was reported that the ACMA's blacklist of banned sites had been leaked online, and had been published by Wikileaks.[6] Julian Assange, founder of Wikileaks, obtained the blacklist after the ACMA blocked several Wikileaks pages following their publication of the Danish blacklist. Assange said that "This week saw Australia joining China and the United Arab Emirates as the only countries censoring Wikileaks." Three lists purporting to be from the ACMA were published online over a seven day period.

The leaked list, which was reported to have been obtained from a manufacturer of internet filtering software, contained 2395 sites. Approximately half of the sites on the list were not related to child pornography, and included online gambling sites, YouTube pages, gay, straight, and fetish pornography sites, Wikipedia entries, euthanasia sites, websites of fringe religions, Christian sites, and even the websites of a tour operator and a Queensland dentist.

Colin Jacobs, spokesman for lobby group Electronic Frontiers Australia, said that there was no mechanism for a site operator to know they got on to the list or to request to be removed from it. Australia's Communications Minister, Stephen Conroy later blamed the addition of the dentist's website to the blacklist on the "Russian mob".[8]

Associate professor Bjorn Landfeldt of the University of Sydney said that the leaked list "constitutes a condensed encyclopedia of depravity and potentially very dangerous material". Stephen Conroy said the list was not the real blacklist and described its leak and publication as "grossly irresponsible" and that it undermined efforts to improve "cyber safety". He said that ACMA was investigating the incident and considering a range of possible actions including referral to the Australian Federal Police, and that Australians involved in making the content available would be at "serious risk of criminal prosecution".

Conroy initially denied that the list published on Wikileaks and the ACMA blacklist were the same, saying "This is not the ACMA blacklist." He stated that the leaked list was alleged to be current on 6 August 2008 and contained 2,400 URLs, where the ACMA blacklist for the same date contained 1,061 URLs. He added that the ACMA advised that there were URLs on the leaked list that had never been the subject of a complaint or ACMA investigation, and had never been included on the ACMA blacklist. He was backed up by ISP Tech 2U, one of six ISPs involved in filtering technology trials.[9]

Conroy's denial was called into doubt by the Internet Industry Association (IIA), who publicly condemned the publishing of the list, chief executive Peter Coroneos saying, "No reasonable person could countenance the publication of links which promote access to child abuse images, irrespective of their motivation, which in this case appears to be political."[

Conroy later claimed the leaked blacklist published on Wikileaks closely resembled the official blacklist, admitting that the latest list (dated 18 March) "seemed to be close" to ACMA's current blacklist.
In an estimates hearing of the Australian Federal Government on 25 May 2009 it was revealed that the leak was taken so seriously that it was referred to the Australian Federal Police for investigation.

It was further stated that distribution of further updates to the list have been withheld until recipients can improve their security. Ms Nerida O'Laughlin of the ACMA confirmed that the list has been reviewed and as of 30 April consists of 997 urls".

Right Im going to shut up now, thats quite enough from me.

Motherfunster · 04/02/2011 17:28

PS

Yep, you read that right Wikileaks was on the blacklist.

NetworkGuy · 04/02/2011 21:30

"Someone posted earlier that the Australian trial worked well, I thinking that?s a extremely subjective way of looking at it."

Think you will find the claim was made by the politician responsible for getting the censorship system into place, while Google and Yahoo both criticised the imposition of that censorship system.

I had forgotten about the dentist, but whether there were 1000 or 2000 domains listed, it was only those porn sites considered illegal.

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NetworkGuy · 04/02/2011 23:16

Baroque - I'll be the first to admit that it can be hard to locate information, then interpret it correctly, before trying to set something up.

Happens all the time, for me, as I will answer a support call from an existing client or a friend of a client, where they have a new computer / printer / router / application and in the course of 3 minutes of explaining they have a problem, assume I will be near-instantly able to tell them how to cure it (where I may never have touched that model before).

One case in point recently was for a small charity which bought a 500-600 pound Lexmark printer / scanner / copier / fax and then decided they wanted to use the "scan to e-mail function".

I won't bore people with the details but it was on an Army base and the wi-fi in the printer could pick up at least 8 networks from homes nearby but until I 'worked some magic' the signal from the router 10 feet away [through a brick and god-knows-what wall] was 'invisible' for a good 30 minutes. I really hate wi-f^%$£g-fi with a vengeance!

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BaroqueAroundTheClock · 04/02/2011 23:33
Motherfunster · 05/02/2011 00:20

I had a PM from a regular poster today who has decided to leave MN on the bases that they no longer wish to be associated with MN in view of MN support for this legislation.

My reply was that the irony is that MN it self may end up being blocked anyway.

MN will also have the finger pointed at it, as a instigator of the inevitable shambles resulting from the block and the resulting censorship abuse from government.

Baroque your right about the fact that there are still alot of people who are not able to cope with IT stuff.Alot of my Gen got turned off by the spectrum ZX81 and never wanted to get near one again.

Wouldent it it be great if there was somewhere where people could take there devices and computers to have it installed on for them. Some big company like PC world could do it as a promotional free service. While people are in there they may purchase a mouse mat or two while waiting.

Network don't mention printers, my faithful cannon of 7 years has finally given up.

Im quite sad, I have a pet name for my computer.

BaroqueAroundTheClock · 05/02/2011 00:36

MF - I don't know whether we're the same "generation" Grin - but I'm 31, and I know even among my peers there are many who don't have the confidence/knowledge with IT that I do. I only have it because my dad was a computer nut. We had dial-up at home in 1993, before that an old Beeb B at home which we (like the later dial-up) got not long after they were available to buy.

I grew up around computers and used to bunk off school where I was supposed to be going to do my organ practice and go to the internet cafe so although they're mind boggling at times - and I mananged to download filtering software that won't do what I want it to do (downloaded K9 earlier to try it and uninstalled not long after when I discovered you can't use it for multiple windows accounts on one computer Hmm) - I can get by (mostly).

Somewhere to take your device as you say to have it installed free, education for parents (I honestly think that some of the genuinely don't know just how bad some of the stuff available on line is), somewhere that you can get access to a printed (not - "go have a search online) basic guide of "how to". I think are the way forward.

I know I've mentioned it a few times - but even schools doing a one off internet safety and monitoring evening likes ours did would help. Those parents that cared could find out more (as many did at our school).........those that don't care wouldn't think twice about asking to have an ISP filter removed anyhow....

BaroqueAroundTheClock · 05/02/2011 00:37

oh and Sad re your printer......mine is only about 18 months old Hmm - so probably got a long life ahead of it - and wasn't a really cheap one either.........but I bought it before I got my laptop and set up my wi-fi (don't worry NetworkGuy - I got that sorted ok Wink) and now I'm going to have to put up with years potentially of sitting on the floor under my computer desk to print stuff out Hmm

NetworkGuy · 05/02/2011 00:48

I had a PM from a regular poster today who has decided to leave MN on the bases that they no longer wish to be associated with MN in view of MN support for this legislation.

Well, it's a proposal so far, and (hopefully) a long way from being legislation.

I think it is a bit premature to be leaving MN - after all the meeting on Monday is worth MN visiting (and reporting on), and it is still far from clear whether MNHQ will still support the proposal. Only Justine can tell us, and while I am not yet sure she has been persuaded, I won't give up hope that she will have enough of an open mind to see how duplication of effort (filters at ISP and at home being needed, so why bother at ISP) and possibility of some open source software to make a filtering system available for all, would mean that parents finding it too technical would have some pointers.

It would be an area where PTAs or schools themeselves could point people at Mumsnet to a /Talk/Internet_Filters section where those with more experience could guide them through! There is a lot of expertise, and with a wide range of kit, so it should not need rip off firms like PC World to charge for helping a parent get something installed.

A CD alone is not the answer because some kit has no CD/DVD drive, but a download from the ISP would be a starting point, and the "Welcome to " E-Mail could also have, alongside their "How you set up your router" tips, a bit about "How you can download a software filter to protect against websites which are not 'family friendly'"

(I worded that so as not to mention porn, simply so DCs don't have a keyword to search for, or to ask Mum about... if they happen to be "helping" set up the new computer!!!)

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NetworkGuy · 05/02/2011 00:53

Was typing when you posted last 2 items Baroque, but can agree that 'search online' is not the best help.

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maryz · 05/02/2011 01:00

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

NetworkGuy · 05/02/2011 01:19

So would printing an e-mail from an ISP be impossible ?

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NetworkGuy · 05/02/2011 01:20

(Sorry, am last one to talk/talk to about printing - have cut out printing for the past 10++ years to do my bit for environment. If I click print, my machine will create a PDF document.)

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BaroqueAroundTheClock · 05/02/2011 01:27

oh no printing an email that came direct to you is a great idea.

I rarely print - only really do master copies of stuff for church (which then get photocopied - but really a PDF 'aint gonna do much good for the old dears who want to see what's happening during the week Grin) and the wee kiddies aren't going to be impressed with a PDF file to take home to colour in Wink (the master copies - once photocopied get used for drawing on the other side.........or paper aeroplanes - and then scrunched up intoe a paperball that our cat adores - so I like to think the little bit of printing I do I have, reduced, I reuse x2......and then I pick up the shreds of papers and recycle Grin

Trying to remember the last thing I printed out at home........oh was a google map of some place I Was going - never likely to go again - so wasn't going fork out £5 for a local street map

Motherfunster · 05/02/2011 02:27

I pretend to my self by not having a car it offsets my enormous carbon foot print.I used my printer for hard copy of creative stuff I do.

When ever I hear the music for PC world it always sounds like there singing 'Pissyworld'
Im not very mature.

I think the MN who contacted me today has tried to be a voice of tec reason since this was put to MN last year by the looks.

Someone who under stands these situations and posts well thought out and informed options is a real loss to a public forum like this.(By the way I'm no tecy, I'm more fascinated with the anthropology of digital media, though I did build my PC, sadly the poster that has left was)

Its input like hers that is part of the solution.

Others will too when the filtering shambles kicks off.

I think if MN hasn't been convinced, (Id be very surprised if they haven't sought an independent second opinion or two on the issues brought up on this thread before there meeting Monday) and go ahead and support this, it may finally force me take my self off here and get actually get some work done too.

I think MN is too savi not to properly follow the warnings that they may be walking into a meeting not fully informed of the mechanics and past attempts at what is proposed.

They would look like right nannas if they did.

BaroqueAroundTheClock · 05/02/2011 02:36

LMAO @ Pissyworld Grin - just make sure you don't do a google search for that to see if anyone else thinks the same and mis-spell it Wink

MF - I hope the person who PM'd you isn't who I think it could be......

Motherfunster · 05/02/2011 03:16

One of the aspect of this that interests me alot is the possibility of this putting ISPs in the position of 'publisher'.

If the burden of cost of doing what is preposed, this will mostly sholdered by the ISPs resulting in sending the smaller ones to the wall.

Then you are left with a few large ISPs influencing what is 'published'

This has implication for the British press.

Night Baroque, Its going to be interesting what Monday brings.

Motherfunster · 05/02/2011 18:38

From ISP revew a ISPreview.co.uk is a independent source of Internet Service Provider (ISP) information

"UK ISP BT has announced that it plans to launch new internet safety advice in March 2011 for parents. The provider will also offer its FREE Family Protection (McAfee) parental-control software as part of an automatic install process for new broadband customers. A major new campaign will be used to highlight the service.

The service is typically included FREE with all BT Total Broadband packages and is part of a wider online security offering, which includes Firewall and Anti-Virus protection. Meanwhile the new advice will supply child internet safety booklets to tens of thousands of new customers. The new booklet will also be available to existing customers upon request"

www.ispreview.co.uk/story/2011/02/04/uk-isp-bt-launches-a-new-range-of-online-and-printed-internet-safety-advice.html

BaroqueAroundTheClock · 05/02/2011 18:57

That's fantastic MF -

Interesting to note also

"However BT believes that network-based parental controls "can?t match the functionality offered by PC-based ... software"."

Interesting timing announcing it now - but I wonder which came first - BT's idea (I'm no business person - but I should imagine rolling out a scheme such as this isn't a simple "oh lets do that next month" jobby) - or the initially proposal back in November.

Someone at BT has got their heads screwed on there and I think has covered most of what some of us on this thread have mentioned.

Software available, part of the automatic install, a printed advice booklet, and a major campaign to advertise it.

NetworkGuy · 05/02/2011 19:15

I think it is for the PR coup, being able to say (whatever the Minister and Childnet etc request) "BT Broadband does not believe that network-based (ISP) controls are flexible enough to allow individual families the level of control they may want, but are committed to assisting families in limiting access to undesirable sites, and will be launching new measurs icluding software for our new customers and over a period, making the same software and information pack available to all customers from March 2011"

(My completely fictional expectation of the sort of press release that will come out, plus some additions / criticisms about the Minister/others for "unaffordable and technically challenging suggestions which could only be achieved over a considerable period, and at major cost, which would fall on customers". They've pre-empted the Minister, throwing down the gauntlet so whatever he suggests I suspect they will say no, and cite Human Rights for people not to have their internet connection unduly restricted when [however distasteful to some critics] the sites they are visiting are not illegal and are not being blocked worldwide.)

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PlentyOfParsnips · 05/02/2011 19:58

Wow, how did I miss this? I haven't had time to read the thread but just wanted to add my name to the list of people opposed to this campaign. The sentiment is a good one but these proposals are unworkable and will do more harm than good.

I'll probably have more comments when I've had time to read the thread. I hope MNHQ have commented at some point.

LeninGrad · 05/02/2011 20:16

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Motherfunster · 05/02/2011 20:29

PPlentyof, MNHQ have commented earlier on.

I personally believe they have got more insight to the situation from a lot of the posters on here and will be savi enough to be getting more independent technical advice/second opinion on the actual practicality, and resurch other attempts around the world where this has been tried before and failed, as preparation for the meeting on Monday.

If they haven't, Ill be really really surprised.