Car seats and buckle crunch - heard of this?

[northerner]

We've got a maxi cosi priori carseat, bought from Mothercare about 18 months/2 years ago.

I was at a playgroup on Friday and they had a car seat safety woman there from our local council, basically, she looked at our ceat seat and told me it is not fitted correctly as the buckle part of our seatbelt is longer than most (common with Vauxhall Astra's and Vectra's apparantly) so the buckle of the seatbelt is too high up and rests against the base of the seat. Which means at best the seat moves around more than it should, and at worst in a hight impact collision the buckle could pop open under the strain. This is known as 'buckle crunch'

I have spoken to maxi cosi today, who are aware of this problem, and did admit that it means that my son is not as safe as he should be, but they said it is an issue with Mothercare as they sold me the seat.

Mothercare say that it is not their problem (they didn't fit the seat in our car, but did demonstrate in store on one of those seat things) At no time did they mention buckle crunch or tell me what to look for, even though they asked what type of care we had. They say it is up to me to go away and check it is secure.

So I am now left with a car seat that doesn't keep my so as safe as it should.

What do you think? Should I take this further with Mothercare or dose the blame lie with me and should I just stomach it and buy another car seat?

TIA

It did say in the instruction leaflets for all our carseats that the buckle fixing shouldn't be touching the seat as it could fly open in an impact. These were all Britax ones.

We got round this problem in our Peugeot by fixing the seatbelt to the clip for the other belt (sort of crossing them over). The seat is still very secure and doesn't move at all but the buckle is nowhere near the seat. Obviously this only works in the back seat where you have a choice of buckles.

I haven't read all the thread, but did mothercare put the seat in your car ? I had a similar problem with a car seat purchased fom them many years ago and had a real battle trying to get them to admit they advised me incorrectly, but eventually they agreed to change the seat for one that was safe in my car.

Janh, I'm amazed that in the Which? report you quoted, the "first choice" car seat was a Britax Trio; that was the one they recently described as a "shocker"- getting a score of 23% on testing!

We've just bought our first car that has Isofix fixing points, and were unable to find a car seat for dd (age 3.5years, 15kg) that has uses Isofix. I don't understand why they are not made for older children; OK, so the seat is effectively just a booster, and the three-point belt is being used, as for an adult, but surely it would be safer if the booster were secured to the car's seat?

Tissy, there is a Jane one - Indy ? - which I think hulababy has for their second car and is offically 9kg + but is a booster seat using an adult belt.

bloody hell tissy, I have a britax trio. Is it really bad? God, you buy britax and assume it is good. So what one do they recommend instead then?

PPH- I don't think the report is available online, yet, but if you want to CAT me, I can photocopy it and send it to you.

I think it was a combination of things- poor side impact protection, and the fact that the back has to be removed for an older child, leaving it no better than a booster seat, difficult seat belt routing, ...can't remember exactly now, and I'm at work.
If you look here though, it scores a "bare minimum". That was published after we bought the seat, and I missed it .

The Jane Indy doesn't crop up on either the AA tests or the Which? tests (from memory), so I think I will give it a miss, unless someone can point me to an Independent test from Europe!

I do think its important to remember, the most important thing is that the seat fits well in your car, All the performance tests in the world won't make any difference to your little ones safety if the seat doesnt or isnt fitted properly.

I am now even more shocked that there don't seem to be minimum safety standards for child car seats.

How can you manufacture a safety product for babies and children and not strive to produce the highest safety rating possible - it beggars belief.

I assumed that although some seats would be better than others all would be at least "good"

bm3, the aa and which? tests take fitting, usability and crash tests into account.

Am I the only one who finds all these conflicting reports confusing !! (The previous arguments over the Jane Matrix/Auto carrycot on MN are a case in point). I'd also question its accuracy since if you look at the entry on that link to Britax Eclipse plus details it suggests it can only be used rearward facing but in the UK is a forward facing only seat - so perhaps they tested a different model to the one marketetd in UK ? btw Roemer is the European Britax related company so some (but not all) of their models are the same. The Maxi Cosi Priori rates the same with or without Side Protection. I wonder if any of those in the lowest category, apart from Mothercare models, have passed the British Standard in addition to the EU ones.

We were all set to go buy the Jane Matrix but the shop assistant kindly tried it in our car and it was just far too fiddly and took up too much room in the back seat (and she said it would be even more fiddly to attach in the upright position - although we do have a 3-door Fiesta which doesnt help!). Anyway, we went back to the drawing board and decided upon the Graco as it seemed really quick and easy to install however, the store we were about to purchase it from said that our seat belt buckle was too high! We then went to a Mothercare store who tried another Graco model in our car and thats when we heard the term 'buckle crunch'. The assistant there did say that although there may be an issue with buckle crunch, the legs of the Graco would take the impact in the event of an accident and so she would pass it for safety - not something Id like to risk mind you. Has anyone else any experience of problems with the Graco? At least the shop assistant did try it out in our car which is good, its just a pity about the conflicting advice!!

Tissy, That's good, I was just a bit worried that someone would see that a child seat had a good rating, but forget that not all seats fit safely in all cars.
I think this thread is great for making us all think about the safety of car seats ( We don't have a car on the mainland anymore,but we still use a child seat on the odd occasion we use the landrover on our 1 mile of road at home.
I used to have a real bee in my bonnet about this, even left a message on someones windscreen once, cos they had the same make of car / car seat that I discovered Mothercare had mis-sold me.

Latest Which? best buys:

Babies from birth to 13kg (birth to around 18 months)

The Britax Cosy Tot Isofix, £180 from Mothercare, is the first Isofix seat for babies in the UK. It has a rear leg support that rests on the car floor (see features explained) so this seat won?t fit in all cars, even if they have Isofix fittings. Check whether it?s suitable for your car before buying one.

Close on its heels is the Britax Cosy Tot Premium, £90 from Mothercare, which is the non-Isofix version of the Cosy Tot. It has very clear instructions and offers excellent head support.

The Chicco Autofix Plus is only available as part of a travel system (with a pushchair/pram) for around £385 from independent stores. It did well in most of our tests but it wasn?t as easy to route the belt through as on some of the others.

Two other models follow on their heels.

The Maxi-Cosi Cabrio, £80 from Halfords, is easy to use and does well in all our crash tests.

The Mothercare Travel Tot, * £40 from Mothercare, does well in our crash tests and is quite easy to use. Like the Chicco, it is slightly more difficult to feed the belt through this seat than on some others.

• Mothercare also sells the Travel Tot Deluxe, which is a seat of the same basic design, but which comes with a higher specification trim and costs more.

Children from 9kg to 18kg (from around nine months to about four years old)

For this group of seats it?s been more difficult choosing Best Buys, as the standards in this group are generally still not as high as for other weight groups.

The Britax Duo Plus Isofix, £180 from Mothercare and Toys R Us, is by far the best seat in this weight category when used in Isofix mode. When fitted using belts its performance is acceptable but not up to Best Buy standards.

So if your car doesn?t have Isofix fittings, the Mamas & Papas Pro Tec, £130 from independent stores, is the best of the belted options in this group. It fits in most cars. Safety is on a par with the Duo Plus, but it?s not quite as easy to use.

Children from 15kg to 36kg (from about four years to 11 years)

Seats in this category don?t have integral harnesses but use the car?s own belt to secure both the seat and the child.

The Concord Lift Protect, £65 from independent stores, is easy to install and gives excellent head and leg support.

The Concord Lift Evo, £80 from independent stores, is very easy to use and gives children a good view.

The Maxi-Cosi Rodi XP, £85 from Halfords, was our best seat in this category in 2004, and is still competitive. It?s very easy to use and does well in our safety tests.

The newcomer Britax Hi-Liner, widely available at £55, is very easy to use and matches the Maxi-Cosi and Concords for safety.

The Britax Kid, £70 from Toys R Us, remains a good choice, and is the most comfortable seat in this group.

High-street prices quoted are the cheapest we found in our survey of retailers.

Updated June 2005

Further down the thread there is a mention that Mothercare do not consider themselves car seat experts and yet they sell their own branded car seats and in at least some cases these are considered the best available from Janh's Which report, they also sell other brands which they may or may not give good advice on - this still seems a confusing message for the customer.

Which don't recommend very many seats that the majority can use then if you don't have Isofix.

It seems clear from this thread that retailers and manufacturers could do a lot more to promote safety in this area which after 40 years of car seats for children is shocking.

Thanks for this Jan. Very interesting.

Do you havea web address for which? Can't seem to find one.

janh, was it the june edition of the which magazine?

csa, it is the June edition but I haven't got mine yet.

Northerner, you have to be a subscriber to see actual reports - website is which extra . (I probably shouldn't be cutting and pasting really )

Which.co.uk has basic summaries.

Im on the other car seat thread, thats not doing as well as this one!

The whole car seat concept is based on the manufacturers doing as little as pos. So you have surveys carried out on compromised products, of course different testers will come out with different answers..

A childs car seat imo should be

rear facing

have a shock absorbers built in (like the mountain bikes)

Have far more head padding, (like F1)

have rigid fixing

Have damping to control the whiplash

What is needed is a Dyson car seat...NEW THOUGHT PLEASE!

The end product would be no more exspensive than the current crop of PRETTY, FEEL GOOD seats.

Child seat safety summary:

Tissy, I have reread the piece about fitting and it's only about which seat fits which car, nothing about the car's integral safety, but it seems mad that they appear to endorse in one of their reports a seat which is slated in another!

NB: These seats all meet current minimum legal standards but under Which's more stringent tests, were found either to offer inadequate protection in a severe crash, or are difficult to install, which increases the risk of injury in an accident.

To meet the standard, seats must withstand a 30mph crash, without a child sustaining serious injury. Which? uses EuroNCAP crash test conditions, with a front-crash test at about 40mph and also a side-impact test.

Are there any figures (statistics I mean not tragic details)of deaths/injuries of chidren travelling in car seats involved in accidents? Presumably these are collated by road traffic police? Don't they flag up issues with particular car seats?

You can have your seatbelt shortened so that the seat fits safely.

If you're anywhere near Stanmore, go to Quick Fit and they will do it for you and make sure the seat fits safely.

lemonice,

I suppose that even statistics might be misleading as ot the inherent safety of a particular seat since I read that the majority of car seats are incorrectly installed or used, presumably including Buckle Crunch.