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Swapping newer for older (vw golf)

27 replies

ItsMischerWavy · 22/08/2020 21:50

So I'm a bit of a petrol head and particularly a Golf nut.....my lottery win car is a mk4 R32. The mk4 golf has been my favourite since it was first released (stick with me.... This is all the background)

8 years ago I finally managed to buy the dream and had a mk4 gt tdi for some years, I got 250k out of it. It only died as something large went wrong that I couldn't warrant the money to fix (it sat on my drive until 6 months ago with the vague hope of a lottery win)

To replace it I ended up with a mk5 1.6fsi.....the dreaded "dud" model. I've had it 2 years and despise it. It has problems that are undiagnosable and sometimes rather intermittent however it's getting worse. It has low mileage. It costs me so much to run I'm not inclined to throw money at it. The thing does 25mpg which to me is LUDICROUS. it's issues seem to be getting worse and I've had enough of it. I have a friend who is a VAG specialist and it's going there in a few weeks to hopefully get a diagnosis.

Question is, I am in a position to get another mk4 gt tdi with a genuine v low mileage (35k) and in mint condition. I'm swooning. I want to px mine for an older model.
Tbf I've said since day 1 I want to "lose" mine and get another mk4 but that is not the point.

Someone tell me I haven't lost it lol. From experience, I know that swapping back to the mk4 will save me over £80pm in running costs. That's a good thing, surely!

Opinions please! For the record... I am not interested in new cars, I far prefer older ones. And I'm particularly attached to v-dubs so I understand that this is a rather specific post.

OP posts:
Elai1978 · 23/08/2020 08:33

The mk4 is an absolute turd, 2nd only to the mk3 in status as the worst Golf. The mk4 r32 makes quite a nice noise, other than that it’s fairly slow, has a very low specific output, is very thirsty and is just about worse than every other hot hatch going. An EP3 Civic is more fun to drive, handles better and is way more reliable.

ItsMischerWavy · 23/08/2020 09:01

See that wasn't my experience at all. My previous mk4 tdi gt was incredible! 50mpg on short journeys (and this was with 250k on the clock) lovely to drive and so reliable. Only issues I found were the usual foibles with the bushes!

Mk5 on the other hand absolutely awful, hideous thing. Seems this particular version of the mk5 is well known as the dud too (so it's not just me and my devotion to the mk4 lmfao)

OP posts:
FartingInTheFence · 23/08/2020 10:54

Petrol head? Golf? VW?

😂

Elai1978 · 23/08/2020 13:26

The mk4 Golf is regarded as being one of the dullest cars out there in petrolhead circles. I had a 225 Audi TT for a bit which shares its underpinnings with a mk4 Golf. The worst thing about it was that it drove like a Golf, about as exciting as a wet weekend. If the driving experience was a colour it would be beige. If you really are a petrolhead get something fun to drive!

KayleighTwo · 25/08/2020 21:10

Yes get the MK4. By far the best built car of the MK1-MK5 generations. I miss my MKIV 1.8T 180. Had to get bigger car and wish I had kept it for weekends. The 2.0 8v MK4 GTI gave the MK4 a bad reputation. It was an absolute pig of an engine and should have have been put into the car, let alone with a GTI badge on the back.

The MK5 does not even come close.

KayleighTwo · 25/08/2020 21:11

*should not have

boomchikawowwow · 25/08/2020 21:14

Golf R owner here. Nothing more to say than you need a Golf R

RevolutionRadio · 25/08/2020 21:17

MK1 here, the best kind of Golf!

Otherpeoplesteens · 26/08/2020 23:53

The difference in fuel economy between your mk V 1.6FSI and mk IV GT TDI is, in large part, because one is petrol and the other is diesel. If you are looking to reduce day-to-day out of pocket fuel costs (note - this is not the same as "running costs") then it doesn't really matter what version you buy, the diesel is going to be far better in almost all circumstances.

The mk IV sold well because in comparison to the mk III it was over-engineered in the places that matter to most buyers: perceived quality in things like the feel of the plastics, that blue-lit dash, and so on. It moved VW from distinctly mass-market to pseudo-premium. From a company that had been facing near-bankruptcy not too long before, the mk IV Golf and the Passat from the year before began VW's path to world domination.

It also marked the beginning of VW's serious approach to diesels in all segments of the passenger car market. At a time when GM/Ford and - especially - the Japanese were chucking a handy van engine into their family saloons and hatches, VW was offering a diesel GT. The GT TDI was way ahead of the pack at the time.

I bought a mk II SEAT Toledo TDI at the turn of the century, which had the same engine and floorpan as the Golf GT TDI plus the Audi A3's interior. Even now I often wish I had never got rid of it, so I really get where you are coming from.

My concern would be that the very youngest of the mk IV Golfs are now 17 years old and even Volkswagens must give way to time eventually. Someone further along my street has a 2002 GT TDI which looks in superb condition and seems to run fine. My dad's 1999 Passat TDI runs fine, and my friend's Audi A4 TDI from 1998 still chugs along. But these have been well looked-after and the respective owners all know that they are just one small mechanical fault away from a logical decision to scrap them.

A 35k mile mk IV hatch has done just 2,000 miles a year at the very most. This is rarely a good thing for a car - it has either sat unused for most of its life, or it sits in stop-start traffic, or both. It might be a fantastic buy, but the chances are it won't be. Unless I knew the specifics of this car and its owner, I'd be looking elsewhere.

Elai1978 · 27/08/2020 11:14

Golf R owner here. Nothing more to say than you need a Golf R

At least the mk7 R has performance going for it but it’s the dullest hot hatch out there. As for the mk4 R32, how they managed to extract such little power is beyond me, bloody awful. If you want something of similar vintage that’ll put a smile on your face try a DC5 Integra R.

KayleighTwo · 27/08/2020 19:03

"As for the mk4 R32, how they managed to extract such little power is beyond me, bloody awful"

2001-2004 Golf 3.2 237 bhp

Not too sure what you mean byt "such little power". Comparable naturally aspirated V6s in hatchbacks and small saloons of the era.

2000-2004 Seat Leon V6 201 bhp
2000-2007 Mercedes C320 215 Bhp
2000-2006 BMW 330i 235 bhp
2002-2005 Alfa 147 3GTA 247 bhp
2000-2002 Clio V6 227 bhp
2003-2005 Clio V6 252 bhp

And the MK5 Golf only got you an additional 10 bhp.

Elai1978 · 28/08/2020 13:49

Not too sure what you mean byt "such little power". Comparable naturally aspirated V6s in hatchbacks and small saloons of the era.

It’s a woeful specific output. At the same time Honda were producing slightly more power from 2 litres and BMW’s 3.2 offering was making 100bhp more. There’s nothing clever or sporty about an NA motor which can’t even make 75bhp/litre. 100bhp/litre is the absolute minimum I’ll accept in an NA motor with sporting pretentions.

kayleightwo · 28/08/2020 16:12

"BMW’s 3.2 offering was making 100bhp more"

Would that be the £40,000 BMW M3?

"At the same time Honda were producing slightly more power from 2 litres"

Which one? specifically?

Elai1978 · 28/08/2020 16:38

Would that be the £40,000 BMW M3?

That’d be the one

Which one? specifically?

Specifically the S2000, although many other models with well over 100bhp/litre. Hell, in the mid 90’s you could get a 1.8 Honda with 200bhp. The R32 Golf’s a complete joke. A real R32 is a frigging Skyline.

Jadeeeeee · 28/08/2020 17:58

"Specifically the S2000"

So we are comparing a 2 seater convertable with a 5 seater hatchback now?

I would probaby advise a Ferrari 360 over the Honda. They were pushing out 410bhp rather than a paltry 240odd you got from the S2000.

Jadeeeeee · 28/08/2020 18:34

The comparable Honda of that era was the Civic Type R and put simply the Gold R32 was more powerful. Incidentally Honda were even worse at V6 engines. The early 2000s Honda Legend had a 3.5 V6 and it could only muster 205 horses.

Elai1978 · 28/08/2020 19:08

So we are comparing a 2 seater convertable with a 5 seater hatchback now?

No, we’re comparing specific power outputs. But as you mention the EP3 it’s a far better choice, the JDM making 215bhp. If you want to talk hatches, an ‘89 1.6 Civic could be had with 160bhp just highlighting how truly shit a 15 year newer Golf is. 237bhp out of 3.2 litres is crap whichever way you want to cut it. The legend is irrelevant, it was never trying to be a performance model, they obviously had 2 litre 4-pots making more than that at the time, it’s like me saying a 1.6 Golf is crap for only being able to muster 100bhp, it was never meant to be a performance car.

kayleightwo · 29/08/2020 12:52

@Jadeeeeee exactly

They dont seem able to comprehend that a car such as the BMW M3 is not a comparable to a hatchback, and also seem to think that the most important factor in any car is the brake horsepower value. I had never heard of the Honda Legend until now but thats a great point. If the VW 3.2 if crap the Hondas 3.5 must be hypercrap lol.

Burnthurst187 · 29/08/2020 15:03

@FartingInTheFence

Petrol head? Golf? VW?

😂

Obviously your knowledge is extremely limited and you don't realise that the mk1 Golf GTi is the original hot hatch
Elai1978 · 29/08/2020 15:23

If the VW 3.2 if crap the Hondas 3.5 must be hypercrap lol.

You don’t quite get it. If the Legend was marketed as a performance car then it would be an abysmal power output, like I said it’s the same as rubbishing the 1.6 Golf for only having 100bhp which is silly as it’s not a performance variant. The M3 cost is irrelevant really, you can buy a 90’s Honda hatch with a way higher specific output (200bhp from a 1.8 amongst others). It’s just laziness and shit engineering on the part of VW and of course the terrible fuel economy of a 3.2 with worse performance than a 2 litre, literally the worst of both worlds.

Mk1 Golf is a great car! The mk4 is just a stinking turd.

chickymoo · 31/08/2020 12:47

Would rather have the Golf over a crappy Honda. Had a 4th series Golf and it kept going and going. Hondas of that age will be rust buckets now.

Elai1978 · 01/09/2020 13:51

Would rather have the Golf over a crappy Honda. Had a 4th series Golf and it kept going and going. Hondas of that age will be rust buckets now.

Hilarious! It’s the Honda that will run and run not the shitty Golf. There’s a very good reason that of 40 manufacturers Honda are rated 2nd for reliability and VW are down in 25th. Doesn’t take a rocket scientist to work out that VWs are crap, the quality of 35 years ago is sadly long gone. I do sometimes buy BMW M cars, I like them, but that’s despite the reliability issues. If you’d worked on a 1990 BMW/Mercedes and more recent ones you’d know exactly what I’m talking about. A modern Lexus is just in a different league. The quality of German cars is just a myth, it’s the Japanese who’ve got that nailed.

Otherpeoplesteens · 01/09/2020 18:41

I normally just ignore as noise the profanity-ridden anti-European clap trap that flows out of the likes of Elai1978, but there is so much BS and bluster on this thread it needs some rebuttal for balance.

It’s a woeful specific output... 100bhp/litre is the absolute minimum I’ll accept in an NA motor with sporting pretentions.

and

It’s just laziness and shit engineering on the part of VW

This and the rest of your postings makes you sound both incredibly immature and one-dimensional, rather like an eight year old boy who has just lost a game of Top Trumps to his little sister, and just plain naive. There are many, many good valid reasons why a manufacturer might not pursue the maximum specific output from their engines in a particular installation.

Some of these will be technical. Back in the late Nineties, BMW offered a 2.0 diesel in the Rover 75, and what appeared to be the same engine with substantially higher outputs in their own vehicles. The reason is that this was the early days of common rail injection systems which were going to become ubiquitous, but the technology was not well-developed so that older distributor pump injection systems could still produce a higher specific output. Therefore, BMW used Rover to develop the common rail technology in service, while initially using the (dirtier) Bosch VP44 pump in the same engine for its own passenger cars, and gradually increased the CR engine's output as technological development allowed. Or it might be that the size and design of the engine bay limits gearbox options - especially so in a transverse-engined front driver.

Another good reason would be to limit the specific output for emissions, tax, or other regulatory reasons: as a general rule Japan has followed California's lead on emissions and has engineered its cars accordingly. Many countries now have emissions-linked taxation for cars which will prompt artificial limits on engine outputs, and several countries also have power-to-weight ratio limits for certain driver's licence categories.

Horsepower and specific output are not the be-all and end-all of driving characteristics either. The Honda S2000 referenced above produces its maximum power at over 8,000 rpm which is fine for blasting along an empty country road with the roof down on a sunny day, or round a race track. In traffic on the Autobahn between Frankfurt and Bremen, or the North Circular on a Friday evening, where most Golfs are likely to be actually used that would get very tiring: a smoother six pot engine which produces its power (and substantially more torque) at lower engine speeds is much more comfortable, usable, and just as fast in the circumstances. It is no secret that VW wanted to make its Golfs appeal to more sophisticated drivers from the mk IV onwards - Elai1978's histrionic reaction to them rather underlines the point.

And finally, of course, there are marketing reasons. The problem VW have would have been differentiating it from other performance cars within the VW group, particularly the Audi RS3 and to avoid cannibalising sales of that car. As for competing with the BMW M3 - why do that with the Golf when you've got the Audi RS4?

It is also high time to shine a spotlight on the BS that is often spouted on reliability, claims which are never, ever referenced.

The two largest owner survey-based vehicle ratings in the UK are the JD Power Dependability Survey, and the AutoExpress Driver Power survey. They produce completely different results. There are other warranty claim based surveys, but these are drawn from much smaller, self-selecting samples.

The Driver Power collates a number of different factors, including reliability as well as owner appeal and satisfaction, into an overall score and ranking for individual cars and for manufacturers. The top five for 2020 are (in order): Lexus, Kia, Subaru, Mazda, and Skoda, ahead of Toyota and Honda at six and seven respectively. Peugeot, Alfa Romeo and Volvo make up the rest of the top 10. Unfortunately I do not know what weighting is applied to reliability in the final result.

The JD Power Dependability survey - well, the clue is in the title. They even quantify the reliability with a figure of problems per 100 cars. The most recent one, 2019, had Peugeot top and Skoda second with 77 and 88 problems per 100 vehicles (pp100) respectively against an industry average of 119 pp100.

If that doesn't leave certain anti-European and anti VW Group posters apopletic and frothing at the mouth, their beloved Honda (109 pp100) only just beat VW (113 pp100) while Toyota was way back in 18th place with 134 pp100. That's not only below the industry average and all parts of the VW Group except Audi, but also below Renault, Citroën, and Dacia.

Maybe the terrible reputations of the French is the real myth here?

SouthWestLolly · 02/09/2020 16:12

I had been reading this message chain and about reached the point where I felt obliged to mention how pointless it is guaging a cars ability on bhp alone. However....

@Otherpeoplesteens has explained this far better than I would have been able to.

SouthWestLolly · 02/09/2020 16:15

It is no secret that VW wanted to make its Golfs appeal to more sophisticated drivers from the mk IV onwards - Elai1978's histrionic reaction to them rather underlines the point.

Just noticed this bit. Think the nail has well and truly been hit on the head.

Grin