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Secondary education

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Original poster

Science BTEC compared to GCSEs - I don't believe it can be worth 4 GCSEs

60 replies

bargainmad · 17/09/2009 12:50

My son is in year 10 and is just starting his science GCSEs (2) or so I thought he was. I phoned the school last week as he told me he has been put in a lower ability group with disruptive pupils and I wasn't happy, neither was he.

I have just received a phone call from his teacher to say she can move him but he will be in a BTEC science group where potentially he can get 4 GCSEs.

This is the same teacher who last year told me if my son didn't pull his socks up he would be doing BTEC science which, and she said this to me on the last parents evening "has the same stigma as doing CSEs in the 80's compared to doing O levels".

When I heard this I made him work his socks off for the end of year exam and he did a lot better than expected.

She denied she said this and I am absolutely fuming they are now backtracking.

In my opinion they are doing this to "cook the books" and have more children leaving the school with a higher number of GCSEs.

I have told them I want my son to do 2 straight science GCSEs.

OP posts:
Loshad · 21/09/2009 22:46

i teach btec science as well - we would not accept a child onto AS/A2 courses with BTEC science - end of - they could do a BTEC level 3 but many of the better universities will not see that in the same light as A2's. And not unreasonably - i've taught kids(lots of them) who wouldn't have got more than c at very best push in core and additional science who end up with the equivalent of 4 A grades at 16 - with the best will in the world, in science they are not equivalent qulaifications.

Original poster
bargainmad · 22/09/2009 13:03

The deputy head of science called me yesterday to say she had looked at all of my son's previous tracking and as he should be aiming for A grades they are moving him to top group for science.

I said wasn't this going from one extreme to the other - one minute moving him to BTEC and then the next moving him up to top group?

I am never happy - I am now concerned it will be too difficult for him. My son seems happy enough about it and they have said they will monitor him.

Apparently it's all in modules and they are assessed at every stage.

OP posts:
Original poster
bargainmad · 22/09/2009 13:07

The deputy head of science called me yesterday to say she had looked at all of my son's previous tracking and as he should be aiming for A grades they are moving him to top group for science.

I said wasn't this going from one extreme to the other - one minute moving him to BTEC and then the next moving him up to top group?

I am never happy - I am now concerned it will be too difficult for him. My son seems happy enough about it and they have said they will monitor him.

Apparently it's all in modules and they are assessed at every stage.

OP posts:
muddleduck · 22/09/2009 13:07

FYI some unis do not currently accept BTEC science in place of gcse science.

southeastastra · 22/09/2009 13:14

my ds is doing a btec though not in science. shouldn't schools be sorting this out if they're meant to be so degrading then?

muddleduck · 22/09/2009 13:22

not sure what you mean by "degrading" but I agree that there is a lack of clarity about the different qualifications. Parents and students need to be able to make informed choices based on accurate info about what options will be open/closed to them in the future. I work in uni admissions and sadly it is often the students from the "weaker" schools who seem to be getting bad advice that comes back to haunt them in a few years time.

southeastastra · 22/09/2009 13:26

sorry but you know what i mean hopefully! i even asked on here when he was taking his options but even on here people seemed confused by it all.

lazymumofteenagesons · 23/09/2009 15:56

To the OP, don't close any doors re A level science in YR 10. DS(1) had no intention of doing a science at that stage and in fact dropped Physics ( did single chemistry and biology). He is now doing Biology A level and loves it (got A in all AS modules).

If your thinking re university check the UCAS website for entry requirements and see how Unis regard BTECs.

thepumpkineater · 23/09/2009 17:30

Yes, I agree southeastastra. Schools should tell parents that some qualifications are more 'acceptable' for university admissions. Some children are ruling themselves out before they have even started, by taking the 'wrong' courses.

Obviously there is a need for different qualifications and not everyone is able to take the higher level examinations but parents must be informed of the reality of how these qualifications are perceived by the universities.

As muddleduck says it is the weaker schools whose pupils presumably need proper advice more than those pupils from high achieving schools (and who usually have pro-active parents, and who are generally more informed), who are being let down.

To the OP your son should probably stick with the higher level now!

Chillstress · 24/01/2010 11:49

My sons school put him on BTEC with no consultation - I thought it was higher as it was said to be =4Gcses. I was not given option of GCSEs, now he is interested in Medicine and they are saying he is not elligible for A level studies. I think it is clear - BTECh equivalence is a complete lie. I have a battle coming with School. Has anyone else been through this? I believe BTech provide an advanced course to bridge the gap in Year 12. I think schools can either choose or refuse to allow BTech students to study As.

Slinky · 24/01/2010 12:07

I'm going through the same thing with DD1 (currently in Year 9). She has already picked her options at the end of Year 8.

Received letter home stating that after recent assessments (she got a C), they were moving her from GCSE Science to the BTEC First in Applied. I have sent an email to the Head of Science expressing my concern.

DD1 is in the 2nd set for Science (out of 4) so was very surprised to discover that she may not sit GCSE (is sitting GCSES for everything else). Unbeknown to me, only 2 in her class have been picked to do GCSE, everyone else BTEC. Also unbeknown to me, every set of parents of the BTEC children have complained.

Consequently, there has been a meeting and DD1 is staying where she is. As I said, she got a C in recent assessments so in my mind she should stay with GCSE - would be a different story if she had got an F etc.

My main concern was that she wants to go into Primary teaching and she will need GCSE Science A* - C.

TheFallenMadonna · 24/01/2010 12:12

If your DD was consistently scoring a C, then in my school she would do GCSE. We offer BTEC to students who are targeted a D or below. This is however not the group that EdExcel say the course is aimed at. A C grade target would be just right according to them.

Chillistress - my school is fairly low achieving int he great scheme of things, but even we (!) ask for at least a grade B in order to do an AS in any subject. The students who do BTEC Applied Acience in our school would not be candidates for AS Science. If they were, they would be doing triple Science GCSEs.

Loshad · 24/01/2010 16:02

in ours (another fairly low achieving state comp!) they don't have to be the triple scientists - we'll take the doubles provided they get 2 B's, but we would not take btec'ers onto AS courses, they'd have to do the level 3 btec if they were staying on in the 6th form. chillstress your son will find it a huge junp from btec to as, if he really wants to do medicine he needs to ask the unis now if they would consider him with his current crop of qualifications before he decides what to do next.

Chillstress · 25/01/2010 12:20

I only discovered the issue last week. My son's school gaily informed me at parents evening that, no he could not consider A levels in science because he is on the btech. I was never consulted or offered GCSEs for him: I thought they must have dropped them in favour of BTEC and it was better! Shocked and furious. Our school starts GCSEs in year 9. He is now started year 10 and obviously not likely to be allowed to change courses even if he had the nerve to do so, which he doesn't. I want them to open the possibility to A levels if he gets his (predicted) Distinction. They even did SATs in year 8 and he scored a 5. I know it is not great but it was in the top half of the results. The VA for the year 7 and 8 was non existent. I think he could have done GCSEs and was not offered. Someone made a casual decision regarding his future. And for many other kids too.

Chillstress · 25/01/2010 12:24

Loshad, Thanks for reply. Unis won't take BTec for Medicine. Some do a foundation year for good As in different subjects. It is as someone said more the principle of the thing. League tables are more important to them.

Chillstress · 25/01/2010 12:28

Slinky, it looks like your child had a lucky escape. My older boys did GCSEs in science and got Cs with little or no effort. So good luck to your daughter teaching.

violetqueen · 25/01/2010 17:17

Chillstress ,that's terrible.
Can quite believe it - some schools ,especially those "turning around " a struggling school seem to concentrate 120% of their effort on lower achieving students.
This seems to involve offering Btechs because they improve their position in the league tables .
In my experience ,any real communication, let alone dialogue ,with parents goes straight out the window.
Don't know if much help but in my research into university courses it does seem that for science degrees some offer a foundation year for those that lack science qualifications.

Chillstress · 25/01/2010 19:47

violetqueen Thanks for getting back to me. If only the school would phone back for an appointment for me as quickly.....

violetqueen · 25/01/2010 20:02

Oh you have all my sympathies .
Would they respond better/faster to an email ?
Are you going to "flag this issue up " ,ie failure to offer appropriate curriculum /qualification to Parent Governor ?
Good luck .Your son's lucky to have you fighting his corner .
Though heaven knows this particular issue shouldn't need fighting !

firebird777 · 01/02/2011 01:32

my dd wants to be an illustrator - she intends to do art at gcse, as and university level
she is also statemented SEN as she has aspergers
she is in year 9 and got her options today
she has been given 5 core subjects including phse and pe
one language i assume to gcse level
the rest of her options are btecs
she has not been given the option of doing art (or humanities)
the school - recently become an academy requires a b grade at gcse level to do as art
so basically she cant follow the career path she has stated
we recently had a meeting which covered her current grades and i asked then if they were good enough for her to have the full range of options at gcse and i was told she did
at this school the senco is in charge of the students learning plan
i really need to know what recourse i have to force the school to let her take art and a minimum of 5 actual gcse's which she will need if she followsthe career path she has requested
any ideas? im going to the senco with this but i suspect she is a cul de sac in the power chain and i am at a loss who to turn to this time

Renniehorta · 01/02/2011 12:23

firebird777 Your post has me rather puzzled. What grade is your dd achieving in art? I assume that it must below b. If she wants to be an illustrator she needs to be really at the top of the class not just at GCSE but through AS/A2 to get a place at Art School or uni.

The reason being that it is an amazingly competitive field and many that emerge with degrees in the field do not have the necessary talent to make it.

If the school has doubts about GCSE, maybe it is a bit of a wake up call. On the positive side Art is a subject that can be studied at AS/A2 without a GCSE, if you can demonstrate talent. So there is nothing to stop her carying on with her art, gathering a portfolio and having that wonderful I told you so moment!

Talkinpeace · 01/02/2011 14:41

btec science does not count as even one GCSE in Gove's brave new world.
Nuff said.

noblegiraffe · 01/02/2011 14:42

BTEC Science won't count for the EBacc so hopefully all these schools which are shoe-horning kids onto the BTEC will reconsider if they're actually capable of a C at GCSE.

Schoolzone · 09/02/2011 12:35

Your child will have been moved to BTEC because he seems unlikely to achieve success at GCSE. If you think he is likely to want to go on to do A-level sciences, you need to worry. If not, he may well be better off doing BTEC - it's a perfectly valid and useful qualifcation and of much more practical use than GCSE. I'm an ex Head of Science

mrswoodentop · 09/02/2011 14:11

My son would probably only have been graded a C in year 9,hated science,artsy type not very mature ,typical boy etc.He got an A* and an A in science and Additional science and declared them proabbly two of the easiest subjects in his crop of 10 GCSEs.How ridiculous to make life changing decisions based on year 9 performance .

And clearly if it is not good enough for A levels and universities won't accept it ,then it is not that worthwhile a qualification .The point is what is it useful for ?

On the subject of SEN ,in my experience expectations are often too low.Our local school said that based on his statement they would not expect ds2 to do GCSEs,at his specialist school he is taking 6,admittedly at foundation level and heavily tailored to his needs but nevertheless he is a lot more capable than they would give him credit for