Economics degree without maths

[Bufftailed]

Hi all,

My DS is finalising A level options, subject to results. If he doesn’t do maths I can see most of top Unis would be ruled out for Economics, although there are some BA options and joint honours. In terms of job hunting post uni (finance, banking, economics) would be a BA or joint honours hold him back? I don’t know much about these fields so any advice would be appreciated.

Thanks

@Lemonsole I am genuinely a bit confused now. What are you saying - students get the same amount/level of offers whenever they apply but they take longer to come if you apply later - is that right?

There’s no set rule - it will vary from course to course, and from uni to uni. However, universities are not allowed to
close courses to further applicants until after the equal consideration deadlines (Oct for Oxbridge, Medics, Vets) or January (everything else) so the poster who said that you need to apply early because courses fill up, is just wrong.

I’d think carefully about economics without A level maths. Even a level economics is far easier with A level maths.

having said that there are some universities who run a BA economics which is a bit less mathsy (although you certainly can’t escape maths altogether). DN is at Lancaster and is enjoying it (although did get a 9 at gcse and also did core maths so had kept up the maths through sixth form)

I’d think carefully about economics without A level maths. Even a level economics is far easier with A level maths.

having said that there are some universities who run a BA economics which is a bit less mathsy (although you certainly can’t escape maths altogether). DN is at Lancaster and is enjoying it (although did get a 9 at gcse and also did core maths so had kept up the maths through sixth form)

I’d think carefully about economics without A level maths. Even a level economics is far easier with A level maths.

having said that there are some universities who run a BA economics which is a bit less mathsy (although you certainly can’t escape maths altogether). DN is at Lancaster and is enjoying it (although did get a 9 at gcse and also did core maths so had kept up the maths through sixth form)

I’d think carefully about economics without A level maths. Even a level economics is far easier with A level maths.

having said that there are some universities who run a BA economics which is a bit less mathsy (although you certainly can’t escape maths altogether). DN is at Lancaster and is enjoying it (although did get a 9 at gcse and also did core maths so had kept up the maths through sixth form)

Interesting about core maths. I thought that was more geared to those with grade 5 at GCSE needing some maths for courses like psychology? If he decides against A level I will suggest he looks at core maths, although not sure all his possible sixth forms do it. Thanks

For Economics as there tends to be a lot of applications per place for the very competitive courses it is worth considering applying in stages and reviewing what else you add based on offers that have come in. My DD did this.

Oxbridge you have to apply by mid October, everywhere else is end January and as long as you meet those deadlines my understanding is due to fair access criteria you have the same chance of getting an offer. When DD applied some universities seemed to offer in batches so if you say applied to Bristol pre 15 October you would have got an offer before someone like DD who applied in November if you are clearly someone who would get an offer which would be people on 4 A stars or 3 A stars. Others are put on hold to ensure its fair who gets offers until all on-time applications are in at end January.

DDs school advised 2 aspirational choices and 3 safe ones but this is difficult in economics at the top end - you have to go down quite a bit to get safe ones. Apply to 5 competitive ones straight away and there's a risk you get no offers even with 4 A stars and Maths and FM, its rare but it happens. So either you play it very safe or you go high risk with a year out as backup plan or you do in stages.

DD applied to Oxford and LSE in October leaving other 3 blank. Then later added Bristol in November (with 3 A stars and state) - she received an offer from Oxford at start of January then Bristol shortly after. She then added Bath and got an offer back immediately mid Jan. LSE didn't respond until May and they have 20 applicants per place, its a very maths based course.

Admissions tests are something also to consider if going for the very competitive courses. For Economics at maths based courses these are Maths based (TMUA) and best to have Maths and FM at A level for that one. For the more social science based courses its TSA at Oxford for PPE and E&M though E&M needs Maths A level and even PPE the economics is shared with E&M so Maths A level is helpful and better to have.

Its well worth looking on university websites and getting your child to do as much as possible. Degree apprenticeships I don't know much about but they aren't the easy thing to get and there's a thread on the Higher Ed board about someone getting one for this Sept with the civil service in a subject close to economics and offer has just been withdrawn so again you need a plan B. Things can change from year to year so always check for right year - LSE has gone to TMUA from personal statement.

I have an economics degree.

the field itself once you have a degree doesn’t necessarily require maths. Friends of mine went into developmental economics, international institutions like the world bank, and also into finance.

economics is a bit like geography in that there’s a lot of different aspects under one roof.

so my degree included economic history, some politics, economic modelling (maths required) and a fair bit of stats.

I’d imagine you can do economics degrees without any maths or stats but I’d be a bit wary because there is a basic level of understanding particularly of stats and data handling to work in the field.

core maths is actually quite a good choice as there is some financial maths in there (more complicated interest rates and loans) as well as stats.
the maths a level focuses much more on pure maths and mechanics (basically physics) whereas the useful stuff is the stats.

DD has just finished her first year doing BSc Economics after doing A level maths. The course didn't require maths a level and as a result covered a lot of maths she'd already done, to the extent she has been cruising and very bored for much of this year, high grades with virtually no revising etc. I'm hoping the second year isn't too much of a shock.

Takeaway - not having maths isn't really a disadvantage for a course that doesn't require it, as it will all be covered in the first year.

OP, your DS may want to read the Prospects ac.uk 'What do graduates do' report (link below). The section on economics shows typical initial sector destinations and job titles.

Economics degree composition varies a lot; from those that are really more akin to maths & stats degrees through to those that are more akin to history or politics degrees. Choosing an Econ BA with very little quantitative element still enables entry into lots of finance and policy roles, but you are competing with Econ BSc grads and with humanity and other social science grads. By contrast Econ BSc can go for those roles and the more heavily quantitative ones.

Set against that, Maths A level is a step up and securing, say, only a B, when an A or Astar might have been secured in another subject, would also limit uni and ultimate career options in a different way. So there are trade offs. As @Octavia64 says, Core Maths would be a very good addition to 3 A levels that did not include Maths. Edexcel A level Maths is 50% pure, 25% mechanics and 25% statistics. So stats are there but if you are struggling with pure and/or mechanics, it is difficult.

With reference to degree-level apprenticeships, parents can see these as 'free degrees', whereas really they are specific roles/careers paths with narrowly specified training attached. This suits DC who are very clear about their career path (as options are narrowed down), have the early maturity to be managed and treated in the same way as grad entrants and who understand what they are giving up in terms of the social scaffolding that uni can provide. Investigation and research driven by the DC in Y12 is best in this context as applications open as early as Sep Y13 for job start the following Sep, so they need to have their head screwed on and be able to articulate persuasively why they are the right person for the job.

luminate.prospects.ac.uk/what-do-graduates-do

I did BA Economics & French without maths A level and had no problems at all. Maths with stats was a compulsory course in my first year at uni which you had to pass to continue but I didn’t find it overly taxing. I went into chartered accountancy with the Big Four (and hated it but that had nothing to do with maths) and since then have spent my entire career working in banking. Being numerate is essential but not having maths A level isn’t going to hold anyone back. My side job (i.e. in addition to my full time role) is as the hiring lead for our global team (at one of the world’s big name banks recruiting across Europe, Asia & US) and maths qualifications has never once factored into any recruitment discussion.

Not doing A level maths isn’t going to hold him back. Unless he wants to be a quant or similar.

A level Maths doesn't make A level Economics easier - it's largely an essay subject. In fact the maths required can be so simple (percentage change and ratios) that the Maths-able end up overthinking it.

It's important to understand that A level Economics and degrees in Economics are potentially very different beasts.

As @HundredMilesAnHour says, it's about numeracy rather than Maths per se.

@Lemonsole I never quite get the logic of what you say. My DD was an early applicant and got offers from 2 universities within a week. She clearly wasn’t given equal consideration to those applying in January. The course would also have fewer places available when they applied. Courses that don’t make any offers until March, I can see they have considered all applications equally.

Also @Needlenardlenoo We also had DD with an early application not hearing from Durham until late March. So no, they don’t all treat applicants in the same way.

Apply to 5 competitive ones straight away and there's a risk you get no offers even with 4 A stars and Maths and FM

This was a YP I know, applied for straight economics with A star and A in hand in maths, FM, CS and business I think, chose UCL, LSE, Imperial, Leeds, Nottingham - rejected by all but N. Was badly advised in terms of uni choices but still worth bearing in mind.

Joint hons or BA econ less competitive tho @Bufftailed

It’s perfectly logical: while universities are free to make offers as soon as they receive applications, they are not allowed to “fill up” and therefore declare courses to be closed until after the October/ January deadlines, as appropriate.
Your daughter would have received the same offer had her form gone in in January.

@LemonsoleThere is a big difference between being full and only having a few places left when loads of applications might arrive in January. Some of those might be better than those offered already.

This explains the system but equal consideration applies to anyone applying before end January deadline so same chance of an offer whenever you applied before that (Oxbridge mid Oct)

https://www.theuniguide.co.uk/advice/ucas-application/will-submitting-your-ucas-application-early-give-you-a-better-chance-of-getting-a-place

See the link above. I have been a UCAS adviser for 20 years and you are giving misleading misinformation here.

I don't know, I'm not a UCAS advisor but I am an experienced teacher, and from a teaching and learning point of view I can't think it's ideal to spend the whole of Sept-Dec and potentially the Christmas holidays and early January fiddling about with applications. Such a distraction from actually learning. If a student's that unsure would a gap year or a deferral not be better?

Although I can see the point of gaming it a bit depending on the outcome of the first couple of choices, as a pp described.

I see the universities quoted on the link posted by @MsPengiuns agree with me (I didn't read it first!)

I don't know exactly how it works but DD seemed to be able to add a university in about 5 minutes so that wasn't much of an issue. Rest of form stayed the same. One minor issue was you do see others getting offers before you but that's life. Also check on the universities websites you are applying for and be careful if an entry test when the dates are or the odd one has an interview (think was only Oxbridge and Imperial). Though the top ones are the ones I would put in first so you know if you have your first choice or not. Then the extra ones if you've got it are insurance. If not you are looking for a first and an insurance so may affect choices. Having a year out as a backup plan is useful anyway, DD had a plan for that.

This is great - thanks

Career advice has been negligible so far - am hoping sixth form better. Would like to be able to support DS more effectively

I think it would be helpful to have a look at some of the core texts and see if he actually likes economics. I did economics units for my masters and bloody hated it. The way of thinking just didn’t work well for me and I found it a bit dull and wanted to argue against too many of the theoretical concepts that formed the basis of the course. I think you have to have the right type of brain to enjoy it. Some people on my course were in their happy place and couldn’t get enough. I thought I would like it so I was surprised when I didn’t.