Combined science v triple

[Hollyhedge]

Regardless of A level options/ sixth form entry, would it be better to have 6,6,7 for triple or 77 for combined. I know there is no right answer to this question, but interested in your personal view if you were taking the decision. Thanks

At the end of the day, a 7 is higher than a 6 and ive not heard of anywhere that cares about the amount of gcses done past 6 or 7.

Probably two sevens - but you don’t actually know what the results will be when you choose one over the other. Is 667 vs 77 actually the likely outcome?

My Dc took combined science and got 45. If they had taken triple, they quite likely would have got 466 or 467. Because they had one science they struggled with, and two they were reasonably good at, and for combined the two grades are tied to one another.

Just having less content doesn’t automatically mean a higher mark.

I think the real answer to the question depends on what options you want to have open for the future.

If you have no intention of doing STEM at A-level do for double science 7 7
However if you want to any STEM subject at A-level, I cannot stress how important it is to do the triple course.

The transition to A-level is really a huge jump in terms of knowledge breath, depth and complexity. Most GCSE subjects do not do a great job of bridging this gap. Double science does the worse job of all.

If you take double science course only, you are essentially creating a huge mountain to climb if you want to do any A-level subject. You will need to learn for the first time a lot of scientific principles that are taught in triple science in the summer before you start your A-level.

Even if you get lower grades in triple, you will have encountered the correct breath of content to allow you to step up to A-level.

However if you want to any STEM subject at A-level, I cannot stress how important it is to do the triple course.

@bluegoosie are you a secondary school A level science teacher? Are you talking about the current spec? Apologies if you are but otherwise, this is contrary to all I have read on MN (and my ref to the current spec is bc I often see ppl posting about GCSE and A levels when they are referencing assessment that no longer happens, as relating perhaps to their DC or even themselves)

It’s more than possible to take A levels with double science at GCSE. The current spec means that the GCSEs cover a bit more content – so there would be that to catch up on, but otherwise not an issue.

@Hollyhedge as a PP says, you cannot know what the final grades will be. Triple grades of 6, 6, 7 would be unlikely to become 7-7 tbh; I would think 7-7 would be more likely to be 7, 7, 7 or maybe 6, 7, 8? But there is not much to choose. I think I have seen you post before but cannot recall what year your DC is in? Are they planning science A levels? If not then it makes little difference if you gain 667 or 77 in two or three of your GCSEs.

Caveat: I am not a science teacher but I know lots of them and they have all said the same, A levels perfectly possible with double; I also know a number of YP who have gone that route with success.

I also agree that the step up is big…but from either type of gcse to a level science, double to a-level would be fine if you get G7

@clary I am not a science teacher, I am an academic and as part of my duties I teach undergraduate biology/medicine. I know a lot of science teachers from outreach events the university does. I have studied the A-level and GCSE sciences curriculum as part of designing our first year courses to understand what the students' strength and weaknesses are.

Undergrad is a huge jump from A-level and A-level a big jump from GCSE.

You absolutely can be accepted to do A-level science with double science, it depends on the specific requirements of the school/college you are applying for. However if you do double science you have a large amount of catch up to do to be on par with most of your peers who did triple before you even start A-level.

The pace of teaching at A-level can be unforgiving, as they need to teach far more content into the same amount of time as GCSE.

For our medicine course, students who don't do A-level Biology before they start (a substaintial minority) get a large packet of work to do the summer before they enter med school. Most of them find first year tough because its mostly human physiology, some fail, but many do go onto do well.

My advice is: if you really want to do double science and still go onto do A-level science subjects you have to pick your school/college very carefully. Ensure that they take a substaintial amount of double science students into the A-level and they know how to cater to your specific needs. For example: do they run specific catch up sessions for the double students or at least provide resources to let you catch up yourself?

However if you pick triple science, you just make life easier for yourself if you plan to do A-level STEM subjects.

@bluegoosie My DD took combined science. Got a 99 and then took biology and chemistry at A level. She works hard and is self motivated (checks the syllabus of the courses herself to make she is happy with all the content). Despite some fairly shaky teaching at times especially in chemistry she came out with two A grades. She did not find that there were huge gaps to fill beyond the work that would be needed for the A level. I appreciate that this is the experience of one (very motivated) student but I think it is important not to leave people believing it is impossible or very difficult to do A level sciences if you do combined science. Many schools only offer combined and those students with less confident parents may be more susceptible to allowing this belief to impact on their choices which could leave them disadvantaged.

Depends on if you want one of the A Level sciences. I’ve heard of a situation that a DC wants to do Chemistry and scored well in that part of double science, but because their other two sciences are weaker it’s dragging the predicted grades down. The DC can’t get an offer on chemistry at 6th form… but if they’d had single sciences they would have been ok. So that’s worth a consideration depending on 6th form requirements

I don't think that's true @bluegoosie . Locally to me only 1 school offers triple science at GCSE, yet they all have comparative A Level grades for the sciences. It's just not an option for many students.

Thanks all. Bit more info. DS about to do GCSEs. School is advising some pupils to swap to combined to get better grades. DS feels this might include him as feels his mocks didn’t go as well as he hoped and from things said previously. Idea being grade scenario as above. Will see what teacher says if it is advised. Am minded that he has come this far and if grades include some 6s so what tbh. As pp said moving at this point doesn’t guarantee better grades. He is generally stronger in 1 so would give him a chance to get a better grade in that. Will of course listen to teacher if they want to move him…was trying to get ahead with thinking as decisions would need to be made quickly. Syllabus finished, all revision now

How tricky. I’m not sure I like this approach of the school’s - why not get the kids booster classes instead? Do press them for answers

If he's getting 6s I'd stick with triple (unless of course they haven't yet finished the syllabus and he's finding the new stuff very tricky). I think the paper twos are nicely spaced out (but do check your own exam board)

@bluegoosie Do you think that struggle is relevant to other BSc courses or just medicine? What do you think would happen is someone does double science, then A Level Biology, then goes to Neuroscience for example or other non-Med but biology heavy BSc? Same struggle?

Were 6,6,7 his mocks scores? What are his A level plans? How have his other mocks gone and how many GCSEs is he taking.... is there any chance at all that he needs that third mark to hit an overall result? What is his concrete plan to raise his score between now and the exam and does that seem realistic?

I'd worry that a 6,6,7 in triple mocks would translate to a 6,7 in double sci at the exams which is decidedly not better. Unfortunately the reality is that students who haven't figured out revision by March of Y11 often just don't find some magic switch for the last 8 weeks. On the other hand, a student who has been lax about revising and is capable of (and likely to) really step up revision and practice papers from here out would have less to cram in for double if they're one of the ones who can make big changes in this last window.

All of the discussion about double vs triple and moving to A level (a topic that is not black and white anyways - I think it matters what the scores are on double and it's very dependent on the specific 6th form/college they'll be at) is mostly irrelevant here since your DS has been studying triple science so he's covered the material and the only question is which exam he sits. He just needs to meet any required scores for A level/college offers at this point and potentially take advice from his school about whether they recommend him proceeding to A levels or not based on his overall attainment in that specific subject.

Agree that the double/triple for A level debate is clearly irrelevant to OP's DS as he has covered triple content.

But @bluegoosie a couple of points; some of what you say references the jump from A level to degree (for sure it's big; but not relevant to "don't think of doing A level science with double") and also medics who have not done biology A level (again not relevant to the double/triple debate).

I agree with you in general if you have the option and if you are planning to take A level science then it seems like a no-brainer to take triple if you can; I mean if you love science that much surely you would want to?

But some schools only offer double; and those students should not think they cannot take A level science. Yes they will have some catch-up – but even then not always that much; if a big cohort of doublers go on to take A level at the same school then the A level teachers will probably take that into account. I'm not convinced from speaking to both sixth form teachers and some students that the amount of catch-up is “large”.

@Hollyhedge Thanks for the additional information. I didn't realise your DS is about to take GCSE in May this year. I assume the grades you have provided are his mocks for triples - and then his expected score in combined/double.

The best thing to do is make sure that you are not limiting your A-level/Sixth Form choices by chosing one or the other. Have a look at entry requirments to your DS' preferred sixth forms for your prefered subjects now. Then take time to make this decision.

NB: I am not a science teacher, but I teach undergrad/post grad medicine/biology. The information I'm providing here is comes from my experiences as a university admission tutor and my experiences talking to science teachers when we do school outreach programs.

Reasons to doing double in this situation:

The grade boundaries for doubles are slightly lower overall than the grade boundaries for triple. Take AQA last year (2024) you needed an average of 36/70 (51%) per paper across the 6 combined papers to get 7 7. To get 7,7,7 in triple you needed: average 61% in physics, 65% in chemistry and 63% in biology per paper. Triple papers are also harder and test more content. You DS has already covered most of the content for triple which is really helpful in boostering grades in doubles. The teachers are correct in saying you will likely get better grades in doubles.

If you are not planning to do science beyond A-level, 7,7 in science is going to look better on University applications than 6,6,7. Universities will look at your A-levels overall. Some take an average of you scores to see your overall "ability". They will only look very carefully at the GCSE grades that are relevant to the subject you're applying for. For most arts subjects, and economics/finance double science is viewed as equivalent to triple science. In this respect you may want to maximise you grades for your uni application.

Reasons not to do the double exam in this situation:

Entry requirements for science A-levels: you are in an environment where there is triple science on offer and I assume lots of people take it. This means you are competiting against kids with good triple science grades for A-level places. A-level teachers will be used to having triple students in their class and they tend to teach to the median.

In the two academy chains where I have done the most outreach A-level science requirements are 7 at GCSE in triple in that subject, or 7,7 in doubles but the subject component has to be an 8. In one academy they do not take double science students unless they first past an internal exam (essentially the triples GCSE papers for that subject with some modified questions). These academies all offer triple science and strongly recommend all students who want to do A-level science to take triple. They are comprehensives but obviously sixth form is selective and they take students from across the borough.

If you're applying to STEM subject at Uni, your maths and sciences grades will be scrutinised. Just remember at the time you're applying the only concrete results you have are your GCSE grades, your A-levels are predicted grades and we take predicted grades with a large pinch of salt. We do look at whether you did double or triple and almost all Universities will for STEM subjects. You don't get penalised for doing double science but we also take into account that grade boundaries are lower, the paper is easier and the questions less complex. We have studied the papers, the mark scheme and the grade boundaries. We have asked candidates at interview in the past why they chose double over triple. It is a legitimate question because if you love science why didn't you chose to learn the most you could?

General thoughts about Double vs Triple course for people who are able to choose:

You can do A-level science and STEM subjects at university with double science. Double science does not limit your potential, it only limits your knowledge in certain areas. How you ulimately perform at A-level (and in the rest of your life) depends on how much work you put in.

If you have the choice of triple vs double and if you want to do STEM subjects at A-level and beyond, chose triple. You will get to learn more about the subjects you love, your learning curve at A-level will be easier and it provides more opportunities later on.

Keep in mind sixth forms are selective - they set their own requirements for who is eligible to take each A-level subject and this can vary greatly. The reality is they prefer triple students at A-level to double students who get the same grade. Whatever you chose make sure you are not inadvertently restricting your choices at A-level.

Finally, university admissions understand some people don't have a choice at GCSE of whether they do double or triple. However university isn't school, competition isn't always fair. When you apply you are competing against a large national pool of candidates who did do triple science and got really good grades. They have the advantage.

Thsnks everyone - you give us a lot to consider!

@bluegoosie csn i check grade boundaries? AQA chemistry 2024 grade 7 is 112/200 on this: https://cdn.sanity.io/files/p28bar15/green/fc6e25026a0ec5cc438923039fd8b0bae581c285.pdf

This is 56% not 65%. Where are your figures from?

Thanks again

So many places don't offer triple though? I did double gcse as that's all there was then single for international baccalaureate (bio chem) which is far harder than alevels. Didn't find the jump remotely difficult and now a Dr so I certainly wouldn't stress too much if double is the only option. 90% of my Dr mates only did double at gcse

I’ve never come across a school that suggests students who have followed a Triple Science course should then enter for Combined GCSE. Triple is not intrinsically more difficult than Combined, it just includes additional topics. The triple science papers will definitely include questions on this material - often the extended writing 6-mark questions.

Maybe the school’s reasoning is that slightly weaker students are better off concentrating their revision on the combined topics only, so maximising their 2 grades? I agree it’s best discussed with his teachers.

Agree with previous posters that sitting combined papers is no bar in itself to studying A level sciences, and the number of GCSE results isn’t usually significant after completing Year 13.

Re exam grade boundaries - there is always a big difference between Foundation and Higher tiers, which rightly reflects the level of questioning - but otherwise the statistical variation from year to year is fairly random.

@Hollyhedge
The figures represent the non-scaled raw marks for each paper.
When we studied the grade boundaries, we specifically compared Physics, Chemistry, and Biology to the Combined Science: Trilogy. Most of the schools I have worked with offer Combined Science: Trilogy rather than Synergy, which covers even less content and has only four papers instead of six.

In the PDF you linked, scroll down to page 11 for the Combined Science boundaries, then compare this to Physics (p.14), Chemistry (p.11), and Biology (p.11). Looking at the non-scaled marks, a Grade 7 requires roughly 50% in Combined Science, whereas it requires over 60% per subject in Triple Science.
Given the reduced content in Combined Science, a generally easier set of questions, and a lower grade boundary, your DS has a good chance of achieving 7,7 with the Combined Science papers.

@ElleneAsanto Why Are Schools Moving Students from Triple to Double Science?

The practice of moving students from Triple Science to Double Science has become much more common in recent years. Schools face immense pressure to improve their Progress 8 scores due to government accountability measures. They must maximize grades across all students, and one of the most effective strategies for Science is to teach only Double Science because it covers less content, requiring fewer lessons and fewer science teachers. The exams are objectively easier than Triple Science.The grade boundaries are lower, making it easier for students to score higher grades.

This is a win-win for schools, which is why some institutions do not offer Triple Science at all.

In schools that do offer Triple Science, students who are unlikely to exceed their predicted GCSE grade are often moved to Double Science because this can increase their final grades.

For example, a student predicted 6,6,7 in Triple Science might achieve 7,7 in Combined Science. This can significantly improve the school’s overall Science Progress score and the effect is even greater if the student’s predicted grade is 6.

I personally believe that restricting students to Double Science is unfair. Triple Science teaches more content than Combined Science. While it is not harder to understand, it is broader in scope.Triple Science introduces key scientific principles that form the foundation of A-level and undergraduate STEM studies.

Many people think of science as a collection of separate topics, where the order doesn’t matter. This is completely incorrect. Science is like building a house—although different components contribute to the structure, everything is interconnected. Every foundational concept needs to be in place, or you cannot build upon it later.

School is where you lay the foundation of your scientific knowledge. The deeper, stronger, and broader your foundation, the higher you can build if you choose to pursue science. This is why we strongly advocate for teaching as many foundational scientific principles as early as possible and reinforcing/expanding them over multiple years. By doing so, students who choose STEM at university will find it much easier to thrive and succeed.

Unfortunately universities get very littles say in the science curriculum, or how it is implemented and taught. We understand schools, teachers and students are under their own pressures.

Sorry to drip this, but still getting whole picture. You all helped me think about it. Looks like DS’ mock grades across both papers (paper 1s were done in Nov/ 2s in March) were 6 chem, 7 bio and 5 physics. He is predicted 7,7,6. His first choice sixth form requires a 7 in single science or 8,7 in combined to do science A level. He is interested in chemistry or biology A level, although aware chemistry grade is looking low.

He will comfortably clear other sixth form requirements as all his grades are now 7+ (ten GCSEs in total), except PE. Maths is a strong 7, teacher hoping he gets an 8.

I am minded he carries on with triple and if he ends up with 5,6,7 that still gives him option of STEM A level. Too much of a gamble to have to get 8,7. His other choices of sixth form require two 6s in single or combined.

Conundrum!!

He’s probably better sticking with the triple then as that gives him the chance to aim for 7s in biology & chemistry to be able to do them at his 1st choice college? If he ends up with 7 Biology and 6 chemistry he could still take Biology at his 1st choice.
If he does double and gets 7,7 he could miss out on his 1st choice if they need 8,7 to do any science A level.

Thank you. You have explained exactly my thinking much more clearly.

The school may prefer to try to maximize his 77s, but I think in this scenario he’s better with separate

@bluegoosie As a very experienced head of science I disagree with almost everything you are saying about combined science.

I hope you are not rejecting students from university courses because they chose not to narrow their curriculum at the age of 14 with triple as one of their options.

Schools that teach triple in double time can only do so by covering material too quickly to enjoy it or teach for deep understanding, which is what you are claiming triple brings.

Triple does not offer a massive step up to A level. It covers a couple of topics briefly that save an hour or two each at A level. And if the topic isn’t taught by Christmas in year 12, they’ve all forgotten half of it anyway!

The exam boards are required to check that the grades in triple and combined are equivalent in standard so the triple papers are not more difficult.

@Hollyhedge Is it possible the school have considered how much revision your DS will need to do to raise the grades at triple? It cuts the work by a third if he changes to combined. If he’s getting lots of knowledge questions wrong, especially in the triple only topics, then he will find it easier to get two higher grades at combined.

However, I understand your reasoning for sticking with triple and, in your position, with the information you’ve given, it’s probably what I’d advise. (You could always try getting him to sit and mark the double papers to see what grade he comes out with.)