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Mossbourne Academies: investigations into alleged emotional harm and abuse. Why are needlessly strict academies unaccountable?

1000 replies

ParentOfOne · 07/12/2024 18:44

The Guardian has published a story https://www.theguardian.com/education/2024/dec/07/london-academies-emotional-harm-mossbourne-schools-observer-investigation

about allegation of emotional harm and other forms of mistreatment at "one of the country's leading academy trusts", which runs the following schools in Hackney, North London: https://www.mossbourne.org/our-schools/

It is a follow up to a similar story, on the same topic, published a couple of weeks ago: https://www.theguardian.com/education/2024/nov/23/teachers-at-mossbourne-academy-in-hackney-screamed-at-and-humiliated-pupils-say-angry-parents

The previous story was based on testimonials from 30 parents, but now 70 parents, more than 30 former students and eight former teachers have come forward

"A dossier of allegations, shared with the Observer and sent to the education secretary, Bridget Phillipson, included Mossbourne teachers being trained in “healthy fear” and “screaming” sometimes “centimetres apart” from children’s faces, several reports of children fainting in line-ups while being shouted at, and children with special educational needs and disabilities (Send) being punished unfairly and “pushed out” to other schools. Many former students said they had suffered mental health issues due to being afraid in school which had lasted long after they left."

Here there were some discussions about how notoriously strict these schools were https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/secondary/5019841-mossbourne-community-academy-any-experiences but no one mentioned this kind of emotional abuse.

My opinion remains that:

  • I hate how so many schools have become academies. That's a backdoor privatisation, with teachers being paid less, while the CEOs of these academy trusts earn more than many University vice-chancellors
  • I hate that academies are de facto unaccountable to anyone
  • It is false that academies do a better job. Some work well, some don't, but lack of transparency and accountability remain big issues. E.g. see academic research by the LSE https://www.lse.ac.uk/social-policy/Assets/Documents/PDF/Research-reports/Academies-Vision-Report.pdf .
  • Academies are simply good at showing Ofsted what they want. If this kind of s* happens in a school rated Outstanding, it means ratings are useless
  • I am all for strict discipline, and I will absolutely stand by the school if they punish my child for misbehaving. But I absolutely dread needlessly draconian rules, put together by sexually repressed headteachers who didn't get enough love from their mums, and who get off on exercising this kind of authority to crush their students' spirit. I had made some examples here: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/secondary/5168466-how-common-are-detentions-at-secondary?page=9&reply=138524258 where I also talked about a secondary school in London banning bicycles and giving detentions to students caught cycling to school

Top London academies face mass claims of emotional harm as Whitehall acts on crisis

Government says allegations ‘deeply distressing’ as dossier of allegations grows in wake of Observer investigation into Mossbourne schools

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2024/dec/07/london-academies-emotional-harm-mossbourne-schools-observer-investigation

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Jodeg · 12/12/2024 18:28

In answer to your first question, of course people are free to say what they want. They are entitled to their opinions.
I would be interested to know how many of the complainants are from 20 years ago. My impression was that most of the complaints are from people with kids in the school now or relatively recently. Happy to stand corrected. But honestly who saves up broiges about their fringe needing cutting for 20 years? We are not talking about sexual abuse here or physical cruelty. We are talking about a very strict school which is open to Ofsted in the same way that every school is open to Ofsted. Parents are entitled to comment to Ofsted about anything that concerns them. They can do this anonymously. Weirdly very few people have been this hysterical during an Ofsted inspection. And one can call Ofsted in at any point over safeguarding. I know this because I have personal experience of this.
In answer to your second question I am unsure. I think this is a classic pile-on. There is a sense of enjoyment in watching yourself and others take down an institution which can be seen to be all powerful. I am sure some people have participated from a genuine sense of trying to improve things. However my opinion on education is that teachers are professionals. I wouldn't dream of interfering in how a hospital was run unless there was actual physical or psychological cruelty. Why do people always think they know best about how to run schools? I had years of experience in schools (not as a teacher but as a governor and then librarian). As parents we did not interfere with what happened at Mossbourne because we rightly felt that the educational professionals knew best. There are governors to whom one can speak as a parent if one has concerns. And as I pointed out there is a process one can follow. One does not need to go to the press. It is that to which I object very strongly.
Try thinking about how this whole broohaha is effecting the children who are currently attending those schools. It must be awful for the, Children want to be proud of their school, even at the same time as recognising their school is not perfect. Because no school is perfect.
I have answered both of your points. I notice you have not bothered to respond to any of mine. You appear to have skim-read the whole thing for a general position. You would not get a 9 at GCSE for this.

Jodeg · 12/12/2024 18:29

OK. You really have engaged with everything I wrote.

TreeSquirrel · 12/12/2024 19:05

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Clearly many SEN students must thrive in the school. If that wasn’t the case, parents of those D.C. would not be applying in such numbers and there would be lots withdrawing once there.

Baldyandproud · 12/12/2024 19:12

To be fair, I have no idea if the teacher was reprimanded,etc.
The guy who started the campaign is clear that the school is good in so many ways, but it sometimes fails students who need adjustments because of disabilities, neurodivergence,etc. Obviously, if this happens to be your child, you have every right to complain and highlight matters that can be improved.

Baldyandproud · 12/12/2024 19:16

I know some Send kids who moved to other schools.

Baldyandproud · 12/12/2024 19:28

Yes, going to the press is weird, I agree. Maybe, it is to do with feeling powerless and drained by trying to get the school to engage? I know a student who had a breakdown because of undiagnosed ADHD and autism. Her parents struggled to get anything out of the school, no calls back, the Camhs psychologist also unable to get the school to engage and put some adjustments in place.They didn't complain at the time because they couldn't cope with more forms to fill, etc. They moved the child to a new school where the SENDco was proactive, even though the student didn't have a formal autism diagnosis. This family are not part of the campaign by the way.

Baldyandproud · 12/12/2024 19:30

Please, do not be so dismissive. This is not about somebody's fringe. Some of these students were/are very vulnerable.

Baldyandproud · 12/12/2024 19:32

But yes, also many Send kids are doing well. This is what we would expect from a good school.

KillerTomato7 · 13/12/2024 01:17

Jodeg · 12/12/2024 17:23

So my child went here. It was our local school. It is strict. But for most children this is fine and for a small percentage (from chaotic homes) it is excellent. This includes SEND students. I personally know of two SEND students who went here and both of them were extremely happy and supported.
For an even smaller percentage it doesn't suit them.
I am not ideologically wedded to academies or free schools. All I can say is that before this school opened there was a local authority Catholic school here to which none of the middle class parents would send their kids so its catchment was enormous and it had a poor to ordinary reputation academically and in terms of discipline.
When that school decided to combine both its sites in a new building we campaigned for the now apparently redundant school building to be retained as a school for the area as there wasn't one in catchment for most of the teenagers. (The alternative proposal for the gorgeous neo Gothic building was inevitably loft style apartments). The only two types of school allowed were either an academy or a free school. It was the height of Gove-ism at that point. The local community opted for the academy model because it was connected to a school which already existed and was a successful school. Some ideologues tried to stymie the entire process by campaigning for a LA school but most people were practical (including the local councillor who was most involved in obtaining the school and who is now trying to distance herself from that decision) and we voted for Mossbourne.
My child was the second year intake. She had an excellent and caring education. She flourished in an area which is extremely deprived despite appearances to the contrary. Victoria Park in Hackney likes to think of itself as a village. And there are lots of very expensive houses and very entitled people here. But behind that facade of Georgian and Victorian townhouses lies the normality of Hackney which are huge council estates. Council estates do not necessarily denote deprivation as posh houses do not necessarily denote happy family life. But a high proportion of kids here do come from quite chaotic families. I have worked in Hackney schools for many years and have seen what happens when this is not taken into account.
A good local school here has its work cut out for it. It must appeal to the aspirational middle classes but its main job of work in my opinion is to serve those members of the local community for whom a university education, or graduating with decent A Levels, seems totally out of reach. Our more privileged kids will be fine in a stricter environment because they understand it. They come from a background that largely understands how to access education. And frankly if the school doesn't suit then choose another different kind of school. Hackney is full of good schools of different descriptions.
What you don't do is to send your child there because you want access to the good connections and then try to change the school to suit your own ill informed ideas of what will suit your child and the rest of the community be damned.
The whole point of sending your child to the local school when you can afford to choose anything is to teach them how to exist within a society that doesn't centre them in every circumstance. Mossbourne is a school which is strict because they are recognising that the students who most need them are the ones for whom there is little choice about where they go, either because their parents know too little to seek out another alternative school or because their parents care too little to find that information.
If you live in an inner city area and you send your child to the local school then you should expect that it won't be an haute couture experience. It will be an off the peg experience and all the better for it. If your child is unhappy you can choose another local school or actually if you can afford to pay you can send them for the haute couture experience.
Schools in these areas work unbelievably hard to obtain the results they get (which are extraordinary given the circumstances) which will open doors for young people to walk through into experiences they never dreamed of. On a very basic level keeping them safe is incredibly difficult. I remember the very small headmaster at the time standing at the gate of the school and facing down a gang of enormous young men who had come to "meet" some child who had fallen in with the wrong crowd. The head would not release the student until these people had dispersed and he called the police to ensure that happened and that child was reported to social services because he was obviously in danger of being groomed into this gang. These are life and death decisions.
Of course there are problems sometimes. 'Twas ever thus. Name me one person who had an unadulteratedly blissful school experience. Schools are institutions and institutions are not perfect. My local home counties comprehensive was far from perfect. I was bullied. No one knew how to teach students to be outstanding. I still got to Oxford from there and I am still friends with my two best friends from there. It wasn't perfect. It didn't centre me.
My cousins went to liberal progressive private schools where they got a poor academic education. It wasn't perfect despite apparently centring every child whose parents could afford to send them.
I will stop in a second but I want to finish by pointing out that most of my daughter's year chose to stay at Mossbourne in the 6th Form.
And by saying that I am disgusted that people are suing the school for damages. If they win they will destroy the reputation of a fully functioning and highly successful local school, for which we battled for years, because they didn't like it and for some reason didn't decide to send their kids to another school. It's the ultimate dog in a manger attitude; I don't like it so no one else can have it; I think it's terrible and I know better than you about what's good so I am going to destroy it for everyone.
If they win, they will win my money and every other taxpayer's money including their own. Wouldn't that money be far better spent educating children in a variety of different schools with different approaches so there is something for everyone?

I agree with a great deal of what you say, but take issue with your assertions about the people who filed lawsuit and complain publicly about the school. Quick thought experiment here. If a trusted institution that has done and continues to do a great deal of good work like, say, the Roman Catholic Church were engaged in abuse -- would it disgust you if people filed lawsuits and otherwise brought public attention to the issue?

That is what your argument seems to imply. After all, such lawsuits and public exposure of abuse would certainly damage the Church's reputation in the community and greatly impede its ability to serve that community in the future. However, I cannot think of any meaningful way to hold an institution accountable that would not do this. People can decide for themselves whether the complaints are the result of a few isolated malcontents or a sign of larger issues. And given the sheer volume of complaints from students, parents, and teachers across many years, the latter seems more likely in this case.

Note that I'm not trying to start a debate on the Catholic Church or religion itself here. There may be those who disagree with my assertion that the Church has done good, but this example is simply an analogy to our discussion of schools.

KillerTomato7 · 13/12/2024 01:25

Baldyandproud · 12/12/2024 19:28

Yes, going to the press is weird, I agree. Maybe, it is to do with feeling powerless and drained by trying to get the school to engage? I know a student who had a breakdown because of undiagnosed ADHD and autism. Her parents struggled to get anything out of the school, no calls back, the Camhs psychologist also unable to get the school to engage and put some adjustments in place.They didn't complain at the time because they couldn't cope with more forms to fill, etc. They moved the child to a new school where the SENDco was proactive, even though the student didn't have a formal autism diagnosis. This family are not part of the campaign by the way.

I don't think going to the press is particularly weird in this case, given that one of the complaints about this school is that they are extremely rigid, if not downright hostile, to any complaint made through normal channels. And frankly, if a public institution has been failing its clients (students, patients, or whatever) in serious ways over a long period of time, and has refused to provide any redress or even a fair hearing when called on it, then there is a good argument to be made that exposing them is in the public interest.

After all, parents have the right to know the true facts of how a school operates before enrolling their children there, and it's not as if they're going to include "psychological abuse" in their parent handbook.

Baldyandproud · 13/12/2024 07:20

The campaign group is not trying to take over the school and run it. They have legitimate concerns. If I suspected my aging mother was being mistreated in hospital, I would try any channel to intervene.

ParentOfOne · 13/12/2024 08:44

@jodeg You managed to write a wall of text without actually saying much.

You dodged the crucial questions I have been asking since the beginning: where is the peer-reviewed research on the impact and effectiveness of these methods? Why do so many people seem to think that these draconian measures are necessary, and that there is no alternative between these extremes and the other extreme of chaos and no discipline? Why do so many people fail to realise that you can and should have rules which are strict but fair instead of strict and batshit crazy?

You ask why we don't leave it to the experts and the professionals. Well, because there is no consensus among the experts, let alone no peer-reviewed research, that these methods are necessary nor useful, that's <insert expletive here> why!!!!!

A few opinionated headteachers liking these methods doesn't change that.
Again, please remember that in the past there were similarly opinionated headteachers supporting corporal punishments, and that other countries, especially in Asia, are full of similarly opinionated headteachers and families supporting very harsh methods which are in fact fuelling a mental health crisis among their young!!!

Punishing a student if they don't do their homework, are disruptive or late teaches them the importance of respecting rules and doing hard work. I will always stand by a school which punished my kids for that.

But what do students learn when they are forced to wear blazers in a heatwave, given detentions for cycling to school, shouted at, punished for looking at a clock on the wall, etc? Please, please, do explain!

I have seen, directly and indirectly, the devastating effect that toxic and bullying environments can have on people. We no longer accept that s in the workplace. Why do we accept it in schools? Having lived through that, I have the greatest contempt for bootlickers like you, who act as enablers, making these kinds of abuse possible. The greatest contempt. I can only hope you will never have to see a loved one reduced to a wreck because of these environments, but maybe you must in order to truly understand.*

If there is one thing history teaches us is that abuse can and does go on undetected for incredibly long periods of time.

How long did abuse in the Catholic Church go on for?
How long did Welby and the Anglican Church do nothing about one of the most prolific abusers?
How long di Harvey Weinstein abuse his victims?
How long did financier Crispin Odey before the truth came out?

In all these cases, the individuals/organisation were considered respected, many people wanted to join them / work with/for them etc.

Another thing history teaches us is that, once victims start coming forward, many other victims find the strength to do so. 1 disgruntled family means nothing. 100 families, 30 former students and 8-10 former teachers are a completely, completely different story.

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Lunedimiel · 13/12/2024 08:45

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ParentOfOne · 13/12/2024 08:55

@jodeg Of course there are problems sometimes. 'Twas ever thus. Name me one person who had an unadulteratedly blissful school experience. Schools are institutions and institutions are not perfect.

We are not talking about 2 students disliking it there while 98 loved it. We are talking about a systematic pattern of abuse, not isolated incidents, not just made possible but incentivised by an entire culture based on instilling fear and crushing kids into submission. Quite the difference

I am disgusted that people are suing the school for damages. If they win they will destroy the reputation of a fully functioning and highly successful local school

Instead I am disgusted that bootlickers like you take more offence at the people calling out the abuse, than at the abusers themselves. Maybe you will only understand what this means if your child has a mental health breakdown, or if you or your partner are reduced to an emotional wreck, lose weight and sleep, cannot get out of the house and function any more, maybe only then might you understand.

@Baldyandproud what is weird about going to the press? There was a time when the local authority could intervene and mediate if you complained about a school. Not anymore. The process is: complain to the school, and if you don't like their response, complain to the Secretary of State, who however cannot get the governing body of the school to change their decision!!!

This makes schools de facto unaccountable, so of course people go to the press!!

Can you think of many other public services which are so unaccountable? Imagine if you complain to your GP or hospital, they fob you off, and your only alternative is.... to complain to the Secretary of State!! Imagine that!!

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Lunedimiel · 13/12/2024 08:58

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Baldyandproud · 13/12/2024 08:59

Does anyone remember the boy who must have been part of the second MVPA intake who had a serious nervous breakdown and was off sick for months. First day back at school, he was sent back home because his fringe was too short or too long. At the time I thought this was a terrible isolated accident. Clearly, it wasn't.

Baldyandproud · 13/12/2024 09:06

I get it's hard if your child is/was happy at this school, all those fond memories of your happy child feel ruined. But the allegations are really serious. Of course, the brouhaha will be upsetting for the current intake. But it must have been upsetting for those students who were not supported when they needed it most.

Baldyandproud · 13/12/2024 09:09

Thankyou for this. I think these parents need to be applauded for going to the press. They are doing us all a favor.

Jodeg · 13/12/2024 09:50

Hi there.
Thanks for taking the trouble to read my rather over-long comment! In answer to your question I was quite specific that we weren't talking here about physical or psychological abuse. I did that because I knew that there was a potential correlation with historic examples of these kinds of abuses. Of course I had no problems with people filing lawsuits after years (or even minutes had that been the case) of sexual abuse in institutions. I see the situation with Mossbourne as extremely different. Chalk and cheese. The issues quoted in the articles are examples of children being upset and situations which parents judge to be too strict or of minor importance. My point is that they are strict and frankly in the big scheme of things of minor importance certainly. But if you had been here before Mossbourne (I don't know; maybe you were) you would know that the schools were largely execrable and physically quite dangerous. Not all the schools and not all the time. But the results were not good and children were not particularly safe. In fact I worked at the IDEA when they sent consultants in to close down the Hackney Education Department because it was corrupt and non functional. So education in Hackney was in a parlous state and something quite definite needed to happen. And it did and now the schools are mostly very good and very safe. The idea was the same as the idea which sorted out New York after the 80s; you ensure the things of minor importance are attended to as well as the big issues of behaviour and that is how you ensure good behaviour all round. No one is treated differently so children who already see themselves as picked on or singled out by society can see that everyone is picked up in the same way for the same bad behaviour of infringements. Extreme even-handedness if you will.
Mossbourne was the result of a determination to stop failing the children of Hackney (and especially the disadvantaged ones) and it has mostly succeeded and it has driven the improvement across the borough because parents started expecting all the schools to achieve the exam results and extra curricula provision given at Mossbourne. Not all schools do it in the same way but they all know what is largely expected of them now. The bar has been raised.
X

ParentOfOne · 13/12/2024 09:56

@jodeg, you keep dodging the main questions!

How do you know we aren't talking about psychological abuse? Instilling a culture of fear by shouting at children all the time IS psychological abuse.

All your post tells me is that some schools in Hackney used to be very bad, and this school, which just so happens to be needlessly strict, has achieved some academic success. This is irrelevant, because:

  • it says nothing about other factors, like gentrification, which may have had a role
  • it doesn't prove that these methods are necessary for academic success. Many schools are strict and achieve academic success without terrorising students
  • it says nothing about the impact on mental health

In fact, I would very much like a school to teach children the kind of critical, sceptical and analytical skills to make this kind of reasoning. But a school which shouts at children to crush their spirit will not.

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Boldly · 13/12/2024 10:11

ParentOfOne · 13/12/2024 09:56

@jodeg, you keep dodging the main questions!

How do you know we aren't talking about psychological abuse? Instilling a culture of fear by shouting at children all the time IS psychological abuse.

All your post tells me is that some schools in Hackney used to be very bad, and this school, which just so happens to be needlessly strict, has achieved some academic success. This is irrelevant, because:

  • it says nothing about other factors, like gentrification, which may have had a role
  • it doesn't prove that these methods are necessary for academic success. Many schools are strict and achieve academic success without terrorising students
  • it says nothing about the impact on mental health

In fact, I would very much like a school to teach children the kind of critical, sceptical and analytical skills to make this kind of reasoning. But a school which shouts at children to crush their spirit will not.

Do you know this school?

Jodeg · 13/12/2024 10:28

Hi there.
Thanks for your kind opening comment!
I think I said quite alot actually.
In direct response to your follow-up comments;
there is tons of research on why strictness is helpful for student learning and safeguarding. You just need to Google "strictness in schools is it helpful" and all sorts of peer reviewed work comes up. Try it. Some of it is quite convincing I think.
The reason so many people think strictness is important especially in large inner city schools is because we remember what it was like before Mossbourne and it was fairly parlous. I don't know if you were here before Mossbourne opened. Most middle class parents either sent their kids to Stokie (which was a perfectly fine school in a shambolic way so if you didn't care what exams your kids left with it was OK) or paid or moved out. Working class parents despaired and gave up or were forced to step up and apply pressure to their kids themselves; and interestingly the Black community had all sorts of extra school provision set up by the council thanks to pressure from that community. Mossbourne meant these things no longer had to happen. The school took the entire responsibility for exam results and behaviour on their own shoulders.
We all thought it was very strict. We sometimes thought it was draconian. We remembered the middle ground between chaos and discipline and we remembered that it hadn't worked.
The rules were strict and fair. There was a uniform policy. There is no variation allowed from the uniform policy. This is because lots of kids at that school experience being labelled as troublemakers outside of school and in their primary schools and thus every time they infringed small rules like the uniform they were sat upon. And they watched as their co-students who were generally well behaved infringed the rules in the same way and got away with it. So Mossbourne said no one gets away with it. If there are uniform rules everyone must follow them completely. No favouritism. I would have thought you would be in favour of no favouritism. It sounds fair to me.
Additionally and as a side note, when you choose Mossbourne for your child you attend a meeting for all parents in which you are told in no uncertain terms that there are no exceptions to the rules. None. Paperwork is sent home with you expressly pointing out that there are no exceptions to the rules. You have plenty of time to change your mind and cannot argue that you weren't told that there are no exceptions. Why continue with this school when they are telling you clearly that they are strict on everything and that there are no exceptions? If you think these rules are draconian then you can decide to go somewhere else and you can decide before you even start because they are very clear.
There is never consensus on anything in any field amongst experts. Not in health, not in government and not in education. However there are different schools of thought and there are peer reviewed reports on education. Of course there are. Do you actually think that Michael Wilshaw who set up the school and his consultants didn't have some grounding in research? I can't believe that you have stated that there is no research. There is tons of research. Professional people don't just make things up out of their heads, get government money (£millions) and do what they want. I am sort of speechless that you would assert such a thing.
It is not dependent on a few opiniated headteachers. All you are doing when you make assertions like this is expose your own ignorance.
Of course there have been mistakes made in the past. Having research doesn't preclude mistakes being made and policy departing up a blind alley. But these very black and white situations of extreme wrong or right are unusual. This is not one of those situations. It has substantially more nuance.
I can't respond to the individual examples you give because I wasn't there and I haven't heard both sides. Therefore I feel unqualified to comment. If I was a parent of one of those children and felt my child had been wronged or was being treated too harshly I would have done exactly what I did when I had one situation with the school where I didn't agree with something and I wrote a letter to the school, which was what they preferred, and delivered it. They rang me. We had a conversation. It was resolved. I would have gone through the channels available to me via the school, the council and if all else failed the Dfor E. I would not have gone to the press because my desire was not for revenge. I did not want to bring the school down. I just wanted my issue resolved. And it was.
The school is not a toxic workplace. This is hyperbolic language and it is unhelpful.
It is not the abuse that happened in the Catholic church. There are no Magdalen Laundries at Mossbourne!! There is no punishment of vice which is what happened there. These are just the rules that are set out in advance. They are just detentions and tellings off. Embarrassing and upsetting certainly. But not sexual abuse. No. And not slave labour and beatings.
The parallels you have drawn are hysterical.
I think, contrary to what you think history teaches us, what recent experience teaches us is if there is a pile-on other people will join in.
To be honest my child has finished and is all grown up. In a way I have no skin in the game and if you force that school to close then it is only your child and other people's children who will suffer as the standards in Hackney return to their previous low. So in a way I don't know why I am bothering. But it is an unfairness and a harrying I am watching here which I find objectionable and I am grateful to that school and I need to say that to balance the unmitigated negativity being broadcast.

Proportionate · 13/12/2024 10:54

@Jodeg Regarding my own DC it's a situation that no adult would want to go through. It is not related to hairstyles or shouting. Of the people who know the account of what happened I've yet to meet an adult who didn't respond with shock or a comment that "that's not right" or it's not ethical (you get the gist).

And yes, I did try to follow the complaints procedure but unfortunately I was persistently ignored. And yes, I did persist by contacting Hackney Council, and various senior people in education, who unfortunately had no remit to investigate or make changes.

The press articles (the BBC have covered the story today) do not give details of many of the accounts.

I very much welcome the investigation that's in place, in the hope that there will be improvement to pastoral care.

No-one is attempting to force any school to close. I don't understand the emotiveness of your posts to be honest.

zaxxon · 13/12/2024 11:24

@Jodeg where to start?

I think, contrary to what you think history teaches us, what recent experience teaches us is if there is a pile-on other people will join in.

No, what recent history has taught us is that if one or a few individuals are brave enough to speak out against abuse by those in a position of power, more will often follow, because the abuse turned out to be more widespread than we thought. And so injustice is exposed and addressed.

In a way I have no skin in the game and if you force that school to close then it is only your child and other people's children who will suffer as the standards in Hackney return to their previous low.

There are at least 3 things wrong here.

  1. No one is asking for the school to be closed. They want it to get better, not disappear.
  1. Your "consequences" argument. If Mossbourne did fold, would Hackney's other schools really say to themselves, "oh, so discipline doesn't work, may as well throw away the rulebook then" ? No, because that's clearly ridiculous.
  1. Even in the unlikely event that it could close and the council's educational policies change as a result, how is that a justification for not investigating these allegations? You can't just bury accusations of maltreatment because of "what might happen".

You called this thread unfair, but there have been lots of different viewpoints aired. What's most important now is that we listen to the pupils, parents and staff who have come forward.

pointythings · 13/12/2024 12:25

@Jodeg so your take is essentially that this school should be above the law and exempt from scrutiny or complaints because things used to be worse. Wow.

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