Was 11plus worth it for you/your DC?

[anonuser89]

Browsing through various posts here about 11plus results, offers and disappointments, and remembering our own experience of going through the process, I was wondering whether all this is really worth it?

Especially for competitive regions like London, the amount of effort, time, emotion (and money!) parents and DCs spend is so high. Then there is the tension, nail biting wait, heartbreaks, endless speculation, gossip, reviews and comparison of the same schools ad infinitum. Next year there will be another group of parents doing the same, probably some threads have already started.

Looking back, do you think it was worth all that?

Ultimately most DCs who did 11plus will end up in universities where significant majority will be from state sector, which suggests that it is perfectly possible to do well in the maintained sector as well.

Sorry, bit of a rambling post, and not being judgemental, after all we were caught up in the same frenzy a while back, but just wondering if people feel it was worth it?

I’d say the experience was worth it for us ad for our DD (West Midlands). The local comprehensive schools are decent, but DD had found the pace of learning rather slow at primary, and we felt she would enjoy going to school with others who were more like her, academically.

We self-prepared her at home using workbooks and a couple of in-person mock tests. DD was keen and straightforward to support, so the process was not at all onerous, and she passed very easily, which reassured us all that she’d be a good fit for grammar. She’s only in Y7 but is loving it so far.

My experience at a “secondary modern” in the 70s sounds very similar to yours but I do think times have changed from the relentless bullying of that era although I’m assuming it’s moved online now. I did A level and degree as an adult. I still maintain tho that kids getting into the academia of a grammar school based on the 11+ test is no real indicator of future capabilities. I really do know kids who were bullied mercilessly at the top grammars in the county; the holy grail of schools.

Isn't it entirely contextual? Depends on the child, the location, the schools, the alternatives, the levels of prep needed to pass 11+. If you have a fantastic state secondary on your doorstep, as some posters here do, that's great, and I totally understand why you'd choose that. But not everybody does. Equally, if your child needs to be doing extra work for 2 hours a day for a year (or more) in order to pass (whether grammar or indie) should you be putting them through it? I'm not sure it'll ever be possible to answer the "is it worth it?" question because, as PPs have already said, you can never know the alternative. But 7 years of senior school is a long time, and finding a good fit for a child, where they'll be happy and thrive - whether selective or not - seems like a worthwhile parental endeavour.

For us, yes. We didn't do tutoring so there was no financial outlay, and I didn't pressure the DC into studying so there was little emotional outlay (beforehand anyway), I did get past papers and make them and myself available for talking through the answers. DC1 took me up on that. DC2 did not.
DS1 got through and the school is absolutely the best school for him. He has met likeminded children, he has been able to study things he is interested in (eg Classics), he has been challenged, I can't imagine him at a different school/
DS2 did not get through and that has been harder. He probably would have passed with tutoring but it would have been a slog. I wasn't sure it was the right school for him as his interests are different, and include drama which DS1's school does not even teach. He was very upset not to get in so there has been some emotional outlay there. But he does like the school he is at. I am afraid if he had gone to the grammar his self esteem would have taken more of a knock than not getting in gave it.

It was definitely worth it for us as we live in an area where the secondary schools are pretty bad unless you get in to Grammar. That said, it was always my DS's choice if they wanted to do tutoring and we said we were happy to pay for it as long as they put some effort in. They each did only 2/3 mocks in the year they did tutoring. As long as they did the hours homework set each week that was fine and it was all very laid back. They both passed and are at the local Grammar and the education they have received,even through Covid, has been exceptional. They get minimal homework which I think is a big reflection on the quality of the teaching they receive when at school. The local comprehensive schools hand out hours and hours of homework and I disagree with it. I myself went to Grammar and it did me no favours as I had no idea what I wanted to do. I therefore lacked motivation. Still got good grades though. My eldest DS is the same and 100 times brighter than I ever was but doesn't know what he's aiming for and struggling to know what to do after his A levels are done. My youngest DS is a 'normal' clever (like I was), knows what he wants to do and is doing brilliantly and will achieve what he wants. I'm so glad and thankful they have both gone to Grammar but you can't guarantee the outcomes is the long and short of it!

We've been through the London 11+ process 3 times now and we've been on both sides of the fence.

Two kids got offers all round including from the super selectives. Both are academic, naturally motivated and mature enough to sit down and study. They also don't have fluctuations in their test 'performance', which might be needed too. For a child like that the 11+ process can be challenging and fun, especially if you keep the pressure off and make clear that the main thing is to throw your hat in the ring and that any outcome is fine.

We looked at it as an adventure we went through together and DIY'd the preparation (bond books and past papers on weekends for 1-2 years). I recommend starting very slowly from YR5, 20 minutes at weekends and building up from that.

Both now attend CLSG and haven't needed extra input from us (let alone tutors) to keep up. They soar through YR7 and 8 and come YR9 they start buckling down by themselves to get ready for the GCSE.

But we've also seen the other side with very bright but less mature DC3 and it was demoralising. Going through the 11+ was a push but we really wanted to provide DC with this opportunity. We ended up with no offers from any of the schools we aspired to and asked DC if they want to keep trying for occasional entry, but DC said 'no'. It took a few months to recover from this but DC is now at the outstanding inner city comp and is thriving, playing lots of sports and doing great academically.

So, worth it? It depends on the child but I'd always steer on the side of having a go if the opportunity is there, just try and keep the pressure off.

Also people mention catchment areas but this doesn't apply in our area which actually is not very fair. We have students from all over that attend and commute every day. I think it would make sense to have a maximum catchment area tbh. Obviously the local comprehensive schools have catchment areas but the one decent one is totally oversubscribed and you would probably have to live over the road and have siblings there to get in.

I think if you live in a decent London Borough then the comp schools are fine (in the main). Obviously not everyone is lucky enough to have access to good comprehensives. I just couldn’t imagine hot-housing a kid just to make sure they got into the grammar. I saw it all when my youngest was at primary school and the disappointment when the kid failed the 11+ was epic. Imagine how that makes the child feel

It depends on the schools and the child I think.

DS1 didn't sit the 11 plus as he didn't want to do the extra work and wasn't keen on the idea of an all-boys grammar. The local comprehensive is pretty good and he's doing OK (year 13 and should be working harder but that's teens for you!)

I don't doubt that had he gone to the grammar he'd have had a better academic experience and would be set for better grades. However, he has friends at the grammar and there seems to be a huge drug problem there, which isn't the case at the comp. Some of the really clever kids spend their weekends out of it on ketamine!

100% worth it! Even though the whole process nearly caused me a full nervous breakdown at one point (and the point is - choosing the right the school!)
I would approach it slightly different with my youngest though

There are “clever” kids at the comps too; whatever “clever” means. I think the key to a lot of it is your youngsters having a nice peer group. I’ve been very lucky as both of mine have.

Honestly from what I’ve witnessed the mums want the kids at grammar as a reflection on themselves. Not all, I’m sure, but lots do

For me 100%. I went to a state grammar and the only prep I did was what we all did at my primary school, and a few practice papers at home, no tutoring at all.

I loved the grammar school. Before I went I’d never heard of anyone getting As at GCSE and thought a clutch of Bs and Cs was good. The grammar school raise my expectations and catered for my abilities. Ended up with all A stars.

for me it was perfect, but I passed with limited prep. I’d question whether a child who needed extensive tutoring / pressure would enjoy it as much.

Absolutely this. Hot housed with tutors to get a place and then an endless struggle. Who could enjoy that

Yes for DS but we didn't make a big thing of it. No tutoring, just a couple of 11+ workbooks and past papers and which we suggested he might like to look through ahead of the assessments. It was all on his terms. He did a couple of practice papers and approx 1/3 of each workbook (I bought one for maths and one for English).
He's bright and passed with flying colours. It's how it should be.
No way would I push a child through tutoring. My other DC sat the 11+ but didn't pass (missed by a whisker). They would have been fine had we tutored or even bothered to look at the workbooks but we wanted to make sure our children only went to grammar school if they would naturally thrive in that environment.

. The entrance process is presented as a simple ritual to find the best fit for your child, and it's evolved into this bizarre tutoring-industrial-complex tragedy of the commons.

@GrassGrows sadly this was my experience 20+ years ago. Tutored endlessly but I don't think I was mature enough. Felt like a complete failure when I got no offers (only applied to the super-selective schools). Ended up in local comp for a few years then my parents moved me to a less-selective private which I can't be more grateful for. It was there my life turned a corner and I discovered that one day I can achieve something. I achieved the same GCSE and A-level grades then went to the same unis as my peers who got into the schools that rejected me, confidence is where I was struggling

I agree with @yeOldeVictorians, it really depends on the child and need to consider which school is the best fit for your child and whether they are ready and willing to do the prep. Junior school was a horrible experience for me - just constant battle between my parents and I over work and what I should have been doing.

100% yes.
Two daughters both at the single sex Catholic grammar 10 mins walk from our house.
It's where they both wanted to go. They didn't really enjoy the year 5 prep but are so glad they did it now.
One is year 7 and one is year 13.
The year 13 is predicted 3 A stars at a level. I know that there is no way she would be at the level she is at if she went to the alternative.
Our alternative has a huge catchment as it's a Catholic school which covers some really rough areas and lessons are often disrupted.
At my daughters school it's cool to be clever, certainly not the case at the other school.
I have two boys and both of them will be going to grammar school too (as long as they pass).

Eldest is at grammar, youngest didn't get in and wasn't that motivated. It remains to be seen what the eventual difference in outcomes may be. When I was looking round at schools for youngest, it was hard not to compare the standards of work which are much higher at the grammar - judging from that displayed on the walls.

But had youngest somehow fluked it, I think she would have struggled. My eldest sometimes finds it hard being surrounded by super bright kids and nowhere top dog anymore.

Interestingly there are a few kids in youngest's year whose parents have told them they did get in but they don't think they should go. I suspect the parents are trying to cushion the blow of not getting in, and wonder how healthy that is. The grammar is head and shoulders above the co-ed comps results wise, so seems very strange to do the exam and then decide your children aren't going. I've been up front with youngest as it's so competitive, it's not really a failure to not get in.

56 years ago, I didn't take the 11 plus, but the 9 and 10 plus exams, and the results were extrapolated. I also took what was then called the residuary place exam for a GDST school. No tutoring, no practice, just turned up on the day.

In the end I had 3 choices, grammar school where the head was known as Nutty Nora, a grammar school place at a local convent and thé GDST which is where I went.

I did A level and degree as an adult. I still maintain tho that kids getting into the academia of a grammar school based on the 11+ test is no real indicator of future capabilities.

@Tidsleytiddy DD2 went to the local secondary modern which at the time was not great (it has improved considerably since). She undoubtedly would have got better A level grades at the grammar school but she actually now has higher academic qualifications than either of her 2 siblings who did go to grammar schools.

Furthermore all her friendship group went to university and 3 (out of 8) are doing/have done higher degrees. Admittedly they probably all benefited from being part of a peer group who wanted to go to university, but they were also hard-working and determined to get there.

Both my sons passed the 11+ without any tuition, because of moving from a non 11+ to an 11+ area, the eldest was given 1 days notice of sitting the exam, the youngest did a couple of trial papers and then decided enough was enough! So I can't say we put much effort in ( When I sat the 11+, I also had to sit the entrance exam, scholarship exam and have an interview with the ferocious head to get in, so just the 11+ was mild in comparison! But I think we have all benefited. My eldest , not so much as he had enough after GCSE's, went to college and messed about. He says himself he would have done better staying at grammar. He had to do an access course and ended up at a not so good university. But he has done OK since as he is quite bright, just lazy! The youngest benefited the most as he has ASD and found the culture of the grammar suited him. Personally, I think I certainly benefited, I was the first of my family to go to University simply because it was expected of " grammar girls"

Yes it was. My youngest went to Grammar and was spotted as potentially dyslexic within 9 months. The school helped us obtain a diagnosis although, because he was at grammar, we had to pay! My eldest DC went to secondary but was one of the brightest in his year so dyslexia not picked up until he went to the grammar for 6th form. Again, we paid for a report.
This resulted in him getting extra time for both his A-levels and Uni exams. He still uses this report for work to obtain extra time for exams.

Yep, well worth it. Our DS is a quiet/sensitive child. Both OH and myself were horrendously bullied at comps back in our day. We didn't want that for our son. He just about "survived" primary school without too much bullying, but we were really worried about secondary. He was on "top tables" for all subjects at primary and we put him through 11+ without formal tuition, we just bought him some practice books/papers for him to do, more for familiarisation with exam style questions and working under time pressure than anything else. He was offered a place at the grammar (a top 100 but not super-selective). He sailed through it, lovely group of new friends (none of his primary class were in his form), and thoroughly enjoyed his 7 years there, getting mostly 9s at GCSE and a full suite of A* at A level. He said that there was "low level" random bullying, but it was just basically a bit of name calling which he could cope with - there was no persistent bullying, physical assaults, etc. It basically didn't bother him at all and it sounds like they just generally laughed it off and it was without malice. Because it was a high achieving school, there was no targeted abuse against the "swots" - from what he said, it sounds as if the "rough and tumble" boys basically kept themselves to themselves and were obsessed with the games/sports, whereas as the "swats" would form another group who'd hang out with each other.

Yes it was worth it for our DC. We are in a Grammar area and both wanted to go to the Grammar schools. We sent each to a weekly tutor in Y5 which is what they wanted.

Both liked the ethos of the Grammar schools, everyone worked hard and there wasn't any disruption. That is the real privilege.

DS was able to study Chinese and Spanish, DD did German and Spanish. They had a choice, whereas at the local high school the language that they studied would have depended on the year that they started which seems odd to me.

Both have done extremely well and are at very prestigious universities. Both are very academic so the Grammar schools suited them. Would they have done as well in a comp? I don't know. They are both self motivated but it would be harder to concentrate if you had disinterested classmates.

I think it did, but also that it doesn't really affect much. Depends on the child too. My DS did the 11+ and didn't pass, went to a comprehensive school and it was the best thing for him. Looking at my DD's school, she did pass, goes to a grammar school and looking at it, I know my DS would have been miserable there. DD on the other hand would be miserable at a comprehensive.

I don't think grammar schools are bad at all, they're fabulous and a wonderful oppurtunity, but I also think they aren;t much of a difference from comprefehensive schools. At least in personal experience.