Active discussions

Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Talk
Secondary education

Connect with other parents whose children are starting secondary school on this forum.

Original poster

Parent power 2023

109 replies

ChiefButler · 06/12/2022 19:30

I'm looking for times secondary school league tables as we are looking to move house. Would like to read on paper rather than digital. If memory serves it is December - anyone knows if it has already been published or when?

OP posts:
Thread gallery
7
Dallasdays · 11/12/2022 20:46

CowsInFields · 11/12/2022 17:34

I think these tables are hard to figure out, DS grammar school hasn't 'made it' whereas all the other nearby grammars are there. The results are all around the same mark (when comparing the schools using GCSE results from previous years), so I don't know whether the table should be taken with a pinch of salt, or whether DS school has had momentous fall in GCSE and a level results.

I don't have access to the online portal, so can't check whether the school has dropped due to 'bad' results.

Happy to check the online portal if you have the name...

CowsInFields · 11/12/2022 21:44

@Dallasdays oh that would be fabulous. The school is Ermysted's grammar in skipton.
Thank you ever so much :)

LondonGirl83 · 11/12/2022 22:01

The only thing the raw results tell you is the general level of the cohort that sat the exams at a school.

If there are two schools you like you need to understand a lot more about them to assess the difference in their results to understand how your child might get on there academically. So for instance, school A could have more A but a lower percentage of A/A/Bs than school B.

Possible reasons why:

  1. School A might not be very good at supporting students and therefore has weak progress data for certain types of pupils. Progress against starting points is available for state schools via the DfE and is available in ISC reports typically (if its good) as well as via the DfE for A-levels for independent schools
  2. School A is a through school and admits children from 3/4 when academic potential is harder to assess and so has a wider ability range despite being very competitive to get into at 11+ and 7+
  3. School A is known to support children with SEN and so has more SEN children on role who are well supported but slightly under perform in exams
  4. School A is working on a trial with government to provide free places to bright children in social care to provide additional pastoral care and opportunities but this has resulted in slightly weaker league table results (real example as far fetched as it sounds from the top 50 schools)
  5. School B has strict entry criteria to its sixth form that prevents weaker students from sitting A-level exams (real examples in the top 50)
  6. School B is known to cull students pre GCSE by pressuring them to leave if they are concerned they'll impact school results (real example- including during difficult life circumstances!)
  7. School B has amazing teaching and gets above average progress for all of their pupils
  8. School A gets a boost of bright pupils into 6th form which skews the A* results
  9. School B has a higher ability cohort at admission at 11+ and its results reflect that with no quality difference in teaching which is why there are fewer Cs at A-level
  10. School B puts untold pressure on pupils to succeed leading to severe mental health problems and don't allow or encourage pupils to take any academic risks
  11. School B parents engage in substantial out of school tutoring throughout secondary which boosts results beyond what the school itself provides

Without knowing the details about the schools you are comparing, their reputations, how the operate, etc drawing any conclusions at all about the quality of the teaching is impossible. Even as a tool for assessing academics rather than holistic education league tables are pretty useless.

PreplexJ · 11/12/2022 22:31

@LondonGirl83 well said 👏

Trottersltd · 11/12/2022 22:39

LondonGirl83 · 11/12/2022 22:01

The only thing the raw results tell you is the general level of the cohort that sat the exams at a school.

If there are two schools you like you need to understand a lot more about them to assess the difference in their results to understand how your child might get on there academically. So for instance, school A could have more A but a lower percentage of A/A/Bs than school B.

Possible reasons why:

  1. School A might not be very good at supporting students and therefore has weak progress data for certain types of pupils. Progress against starting points is available for state schools via the DfE and is available in ISC reports typically (if its good) as well as via the DfE for A-levels for independent schools
  2. School A is a through school and admits children from 3/4 when academic potential is harder to assess and so has a wider ability range despite being very competitive to get into at 11+ and 7+
  3. School A is known to support children with SEN and so has more SEN children on role who are well supported but slightly under perform in exams
  4. School A is working on a trial with government to provide free places to bright children in social care to provide additional pastoral care and opportunities but this has resulted in slightly weaker league table results (real example as far fetched as it sounds from the top 50 schools)
  5. School B has strict entry criteria to its sixth form that prevents weaker students from sitting A-level exams (real examples in the top 50)
  6. School B is known to cull students pre GCSE by pressuring them to leave if they are concerned they'll impact school results (real example- including during difficult life circumstances!)
  7. School B has amazing teaching and gets above average progress for all of their pupils
  8. School A gets a boost of bright pupils into 6th form which skews the A* results
  9. School B has a higher ability cohort at admission at 11+ and its results reflect that with no quality difference in teaching which is why there are fewer Cs at A-level
  10. School B puts untold pressure on pupils to succeed leading to severe mental health problems and don't allow or encourage pupils to take any academic risks
  11. School B parents engage in substantial out of school tutoring throughout secondary which boosts results beyond what the school itself provides

Without knowing the details about the schools you are comparing, their reputations, how the operate, etc drawing any conclusions at all about the quality of the teaching is impossible. Even as a tool for assessing academics rather than holistic education league tables are pretty useless.

Thank you @LondonGirl83

I've seen my DD's private day school FREEFALL from last year. I logged on and thought WTF? I mean we've dropped so many places! No change of head, still the same little senior school! Prefer not name it, name and shame myself!

Reading your post has made me realise I'm being foolish, my DD loves her school, we love it, and she's happy and doing well academically , what more do I want? The raw data for one year doesn't make or break a school.

Dallasdays · 11/12/2022 23:06

CowsInFields · 11/12/2022 21:44

@Dallasdays oh that would be fabulous. The school is Ermysted's grammar in skipton.
Thank you ever so much :)

@CowsInFields I looked but I can't see it at all on the list I'm afraid!

CowsInFields · 11/12/2022 23:29

@Dallasdays thank you for checking 😊

futomaki · 12/12/2022 07:41

LondonGirl83 · 11/12/2022 22:01

The only thing the raw results tell you is the general level of the cohort that sat the exams at a school.

If there are two schools you like you need to understand a lot more about them to assess the difference in their results to understand how your child might get on there academically. So for instance, school A could have more A but a lower percentage of A/A/Bs than school B.

Possible reasons why:

  1. School A might not be very good at supporting students and therefore has weak progress data for certain types of pupils. Progress against starting points is available for state schools via the DfE and is available in ISC reports typically (if its good) as well as via the DfE for A-levels for independent schools
  2. School A is a through school and admits children from 3/4 when academic potential is harder to assess and so has a wider ability range despite being very competitive to get into at 11+ and 7+
  3. School A is known to support children with SEN and so has more SEN children on role who are well supported but slightly under perform in exams
  4. School A is working on a trial with government to provide free places to bright children in social care to provide additional pastoral care and opportunities but this has resulted in slightly weaker league table results (real example as far fetched as it sounds from the top 50 schools)
  5. School B has strict entry criteria to its sixth form that prevents weaker students from sitting A-level exams (real examples in the top 50)
  6. School B is known to cull students pre GCSE by pressuring them to leave if they are concerned they'll impact school results (real example- including during difficult life circumstances!)
  7. School B has amazing teaching and gets above average progress for all of their pupils
  8. School A gets a boost of bright pupils into 6th form which skews the A* results
  9. School B has a higher ability cohort at admission at 11+ and its results reflect that with no quality difference in teaching which is why there are fewer Cs at A-level
  10. School B puts untold pressure on pupils to succeed leading to severe mental health problems and don't allow or encourage pupils to take any academic risks
  11. School B parents engage in substantial out of school tutoring throughout secondary which boosts results beyond what the school itself provides

Without knowing the details about the schools you are comparing, their reputations, how the operate, etc drawing any conclusions at all about the quality of the teaching is impossible. Even as a tool for assessing academics rather than holistic education league tables are pretty useless.

Great points. Also, schools have a different mix of A level subjects. A school with way more Physics A level results is different than another. Best to compare like subject A level results across schools, which is a lot of work, but provides a clearer picture. But as you rightly say, there's so many other factors as well.

TizerorFizz · 12/12/2022 08:58

Not everyone has very bright DC. Not everyone wants a top performing school.

I have noticed though, that when we chose an independent boarding school for DD, their results were very similar to our local grammar for girls. DD passed for the grammar. Now, they are miles apart on results. The ranking of the private school has dropped by well over 100 in that time. Over the years, it appears fewer bright DC are going to the independent school. The destinations list isn’t what it was. It’s very popular though and has more DD wanting to go there. So it’s clearly not all about results. At this moment in time, I might not choose it on results though if I had a bright DD but I might if I valued lots of other things about a school.

LondonGirl83 · 12/12/2022 09:05

My husband and I very specifically ruled out any schools that had a bad reputation for culling.

This isn't because we were concerned our kids would be asked to leave as they are very able. Its because schools like that tie 100% of an individual's self-worth to a very narrow definition of achievement. Even if a child is successful in that environment, they are still left with that overarching message.

Friends of ours who are GPs have told us of the long term mental health issues they see in adults who've been and current students that are in schools like this, and it is not pretty.

I'm naturally very competitive so when it came to picking a school I had to really take a hard look at myself to make sure I was making decisions that were really best for my child rather than just feeding my own ego! We've chosen a top school but one that aligns with our broader values on education and pastoral care rather than just the one with the highest league table ranking.

KiwiMum2023 · 12/12/2022 09:12

Did I read correctly that ‘most’ parents are viewing up to 15 schools for their DC? Bonkers.

Workhar · 12/12/2022 09:16

@KiwiMum2023 i don’t think so. I just know 1 family who has applied to more than 10 schools and that’s only because they are interested in both boarding & day schools. And more importantly, the child’s performance will go down if made to do so many entrance exams & interviews one after the other.

LondonMum20222 · 12/12/2022 09:30

KiwiMum2023 · 12/12/2022 09:12

Did I read correctly that ‘most’ parents are viewing up to 15 schools for their DC? Bonkers.

Why bonkers? It's just due diligence. If you were buying a house you'd want to see a good range in your area / price bracket before committing. I think if you're spending c.£350k on seven years of education, you want to know what one school offers that another doesn't etc, and get a good feel for the various cultures at different schools so that you can make an informed decision about which would really suit your DD. I think most parents at my DD's prep will see ten or more. Why wouldn't you with such an important decision to make?

PreplexJ · 12/12/2022 09:59

Certain group of parents choose school based on league table only. They will be sitting all the top Grammar schools in the top ranking list irrespective of where one lives, then allowing the child to commute hours just to be in a top Grammar school (rank top 5?) even though there is a local Grammar school (maybe rank 50?).

KiwiMum2023 · 12/12/2022 10:03

LondonMum20222 · 12/12/2022 09:30

Why bonkers? It's just due diligence. If you were buying a house you'd want to see a good range in your area / price bracket before committing. I think if you're spending c.£350k on seven years of education, you want to know what one school offers that another doesn't etc, and get a good feel for the various cultures at different schools so that you can make an informed decision about which would really suit your DD. I think most parents at my DD's prep will see ten or more. Why wouldn't you with such an important decision to make?

Show quote history

I’m not in the market to fork out £350k for my DC’s education. Fortunately, she’s having a wonderful experience at an excellent state school - and being stretched academically too, believe it or not - so I don’t need to.

OhCrumbsWhereNow · 12/12/2022 11:07

I looked at more than 10 schools in the state sector - plus a load of private schools. Our top choice was unanimously a state one.

You don't need to take the child with you, and it's very interesting when you have seen a LOT of schools and heard a lot of HT speeches to see what makes one tick the boxes and another not.

Next 5-7 years of DC's life warranted the same attention I'd put into house buying (it is after all rather easier to move house than move to a great school outside main entry points).

EmmatheStageRat · 12/12/2022 11:12

@CowsInFields , is this helpful?

Parent power 2023
LondonMum20222 · 12/12/2022 12:06

KiwiMum2023 · 12/12/2022 10:03

I’m not in the market to fork out £350k for my DC’s education. Fortunately, she’s having a wonderful experience at an excellent state school - and being stretched academically too, believe it or not - so I don’t need to.

Show quote history

Oh, I see. You just hopped on here to have a pop at random strangers. Nice.

LondonMum20222 · 12/12/2022 12:07

OhCrumbsWhereNow · 12/12/2022 11:07

I looked at more than 10 schools in the state sector - plus a load of private schools. Our top choice was unanimously a state one.

You don't need to take the child with you, and it's very interesting when you have seen a LOT of schools and heard a lot of HT speeches to see what makes one tick the boxes and another not.

Next 5-7 years of DC's life warranted the same attention I'd put into house buying (it is after all rather easier to move house than move to a great school outside main entry points).

Hear hear!

TizerorFizz · 12/12/2022 12:30

We looked a a few (4) for DD1 but we were not going to drive for hours (we are rural) and we needed a school for girls that took from 11, ideally. Also DD1 was state educated so we needed to be careful about entrance exams. We really didn’t have a long list! DD did 2 lots of exams and interviews and we jointly decided where she would be happiest. In a city it’s very different with so many options within easy reach. I couldn’t agree more about finding the school that makes you and Dc feel they belong.

Interestingly we looked at 6 for DD2 for 6th form. Art was her thing so we needed great art teaching. I had contacted several others and even talking to admissions you get a “feel” for a school. Several were ruled out on the basis of being told art wasn’t academic! One said history of art wasn’t academic either. Both these schools had less than stellar results and were allegedly inclusive.

thing47 · 12/12/2022 13:47

PreplexJ · 12/12/2022 09:59

Certain group of parents choose school based on league table only. They will be sitting all the top Grammar schools in the top ranking list irrespective of where one lives, then allowing the child to commute hours just to be in a top Grammar school (rank top 5?) even though there is a local Grammar school (maybe rank 50?).

Ha, yes to this @PreplexJ. We live in an area where the grammar schools are all catchment schools – if you get above a certain mark you will get a grammar school place (though not necessarily at your first choice). Every year we get dozens if not hundreds of parents asking 'what score does my child have to get to gain a place?' To which the answer is, they could get the highest score ever recorded and they still won't get a place if they don't also live in catchment.

Surely doing this level of basic research into schools is fairly fundamental?

CowsInFields · 12/12/2022 18:56

@EmmatheStageRat thank you,
I can't seem to find the school, so I've queried whether they have opted out (DS seems to think that was a bad idea Blush)

EmmatheStageRat · 12/12/2022 19:47

CowsInFields · 12/12/2022 18:56

@EmmatheStageRat thank you,
I can't seem to find the school, so I've queried whether they have opted out (DS seems to think that was a bad idea Blush)

@CowsInFields , yes, I did a thorough search but Ermystead’s didn’t come up. Maybe because they’re giving other schools a turn this year?! Ermystead’s has done so well in the charts for the last couple of years. DD1 is at NHGS so I’m interested to see that it is third in the north and Crossleys doesn’t appear anywhere. I’m taking it all with a pinch of salt and keeping fingers crossed that Y10 DD1 gets a place at Greenhead College for sixth form.

CowsInFields · 12/12/2022 20:18

@EmmatheStageRat thank you ever so much, it is interesting to see Crossley too isn't on the list too.

Hopefully your dd will get a place at Greenhead, it looks fantastic.

Definitely going to take the tables with a pinch of salt 😂

Parentpower1 · 13/12/2022 15:15

Hi, does anyone have any information on Epsom College. They don’t appear in the Top 100 Independent School list this year. Thankyou

Swipe left for the next trending thread