Fencing at WinColl and/or Sevenoaks School

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DS is a 11yo fencing prodigy and we're in the process of making a decision between the above two senior schools (age 13-18) and fencing provisioning is an important consideration.

We are looking for both individual and group sessions and national/international level competitions and wondering if anyone has personal experience at any of these schools.

1, Which weapons are offered?
2, Will the school arrange for specialised coaches in case of international level talent?
3, How many group sessions per week without a sports scholarship?
4, How many group/ individual sessions per week with a sports scholarship?
5, How are individual sessions organised? (What) Are the(re) any additonal costs?
6, How flexibile is the school to allow a fencer to attend national/international competitions (once a month Sat-Sun) assuming academics are fine.
7, Anything else worth considering?

I wouldn’t take the Parent Power too seriously - up to 25/30 it will change frequently - but the very top schools are all in there.

My recommendation was based on what you said about yourself. Lived in Blackheath, willing to consider living in Bromley etc., lived abroad. Might want access to London fencing. Not totally against day schools etc. However, I do not know anything about your child’s character or academic preferences and how his mind works.

Sevenoaks is also very much a local school. As mentioned, we know plenty of children who go there and they are not too different from the kids going to the superselective grammars in Tonbridge and Orpington. It is a more “normal” school than Winchester, in my opinion.

Is money a consideration for you at all? Because 25k day fees Sevenoaks vs Winchester 43k boarding is quite a big difference.

We did look at both schools and we do know people with children at both schools. They are all happy. My friends are not too concerned about the changes at Winchester with co-ed and new headmaster although apparently some parents are. I am sure it will settle down very soon and the school will be great. I also have friends who complained about Eton and the woke headmaster there who have since changed their minds... All these schools are an amazing experience for the child so maybe just choose whatever your gut tells you (and perhaps also what your DS prefers). My DS loved the Hogwarts nature of Eton and Winchester when he was younger (the gowns, lingo, the weird & wonderful).
And you do need to think about IB vs A-levels, quite a difference. IB is something like 25% aural exams in some subjects, A-level more writing based and obviously fewer subjects, can be more specialist if you are strictly e.g. a scientist.

Personally, I would chose Sevenoaks because I think it would be better preparation for normal life later on.

Thank you so much for your help and fresh ideas @LIZS @Abuildingwith4wallsandtmrinsid Really good tips and insight.

I know Whitgift and Trinity have excellent reputations, but we haven’t been and don’t know anyone with a child there. Will see what I can find out online, as we’ll not be back in the UK until June unfortunately😥

Another for Sevenoaks is the shorter train ride to London. DS is a generlist albeit leaning STEM, but still reads a lot of literature and history in his free time. The main argument for IB (other than international recognition) is that it provides a wider foundation and the individual projects prepare one better for life later.

But then WinCol’s Div, with its (successful) tradition of entering the top set into project based STEM Olympiads, might be even better for that🤔

Decisions, decisions, decisions…. gut feel it is then! 🤓

I was thinking of those as they have 13+ entry papers, close to London and excellence for sport and music. Whitgift also has some boarding facilities.

I know people with DC at both Whitgift and Trinity and they are happy - good solid academic schools but not in the very top tier. Usually have a reasonable number of Oxbridge places and Whitgift offers IB as well as A levels. WHitgift is a modern pentathlon centre although DD didn't rate the in school fencing. I know boys who have been allowed to take time out from Whitgift for other activities - theatre and music so they are not too heavy on the academics to want to obliterate all extra curriculars.

You may want to be cautious about referring to an 11 yo as a fencing prodigy. There are many fencers of that age who have had very good results and then suddenly find themselves losing regularly to comprehensive school educated northerners who didn't start fencing till they were 10.

You also talk at one point about daily training. That seems excessive for an 11 yo - beware of over training and burn out.

You mention checking whether your DS would be allowed to go to competitions on Saturdays. International competitions generally require travelling on Fridays. Who would take him to competitions generally? If you're minded to put him into a boarding school you're presumably not going to be particularly "hands on".

And if money is a consideration, then you may wish to skip the expensive school or the fencing. Quite apart from the costs of kit, club membership, lessons, competitions, travelling to competitions at an early stage, if your ds genuinely turns out to be even half way good, the costs at U17 and U20 level can be at the level of school fees.

How does your DS feel about doing more exams in Year 8? Because Sevenoaks he would be done and dusted and could just relax and focus on his fencing and music for the next year. For my lazy kids that would be a big consideration- just like they wouldn’t want to have to go to chapel a lot.

I think some of the 13 plus boys schools set dependent on their exams in Year 8 so that is annoying for children who are not in prep schools specifically geared towards this because no bright child wants to end up in a lower set due to circumstances. So this might also be a consideration.
The train from sevenoaks is indeed very fast and good. Winchester is much slower and more bumbly.

That‘s true but we’re not big on entry test prep anyways. Is it difficult to change sets at WinColl at the end of the first term?

Compulsory chapel on Sundays with almost no flexibility is a much bigger factor in our decision. It appears that Eton and Harrow are a lot more flexible in that regard, and I am sure the majority of parents would appreciate it.

It’s not like WinCol is filled with monks (we hear that most of the boys are either agnostic or atheists) so why is WinCol so strict about it?

Regarding the chapel, if they are going to take day pupils how will that work? Because not all will live on the doorstep surely. What might the new headmaster or headmistress do? So it might be difficult to tell at this point how rigid the obligation may remain.

On the plus side, if you look at the Reverends CVs they look quite interesting!
www.winchestercollege.org/welcome/location/buildings/chapel

“Prior to joining Winchester, Hester was a senior lecturer in English at the University of Bristol and vicar of the parish of Abbots Leigh and Leigh Woods. She studied at Cambridge and also worked previously at Liverpool University. She loves to write and teach in the areas of poetry, theology, and gender studies, and is writing a book about depth and Christian faith in poetry of the twentieth century.”

Part of the pastoral care and ethos of the school the whole - manneth maketh man etc - combining religion, community, philosophy, bigger questions etc?

From a foil fencing perspective the top clubs have historically been ZFW, Salle Boston and Newham Swords. Newham is based out at Sports Dock (university of East London), Salle Boston is more central as is ZFW.

I don't know which schools most of the kids go to - most fence under their clubs other than Brentwood and Whitgift as well as the obvious Millfield...

The Leon Paul Centre (Hendon) has a purpose built facility with coaching at all weapons. Access to that would be handy.

My DS is at Wincoll and fenced since quite early in prep school. He went straight in to the squad there and would fence a couple of times a week, but he gave it up in the first year if I remember, because competitions meant usually taking a whole day out at the weekend, which needs to be balanced against all the other opportunities/commitments. He did say the coaches were excellent.
In terms of academic sets, they are very flexible and a boy may move up or down even for a few weeks at a time if that suits them. Things settle in the top years; I'm not sure there is any change in the sets once the A level 2-year courses begin.
Good luck to your DS.

Many thanks for sharing your experience @FriendlyLaundryMonster this is very helpful. It is probably also safe to assume that WinColl also wasn't too pleased with him missing every second weekend, including several Sat evening prep and Sun chapel opportunities😊 Did your DS end up taking on another competitive sport or musical commitments for Sat afternoons?

You're spot on as always @Abuildingwith4wallsandtmrinsid 😋

WinColl didn’t mind at all about his time away in squad. School took them there by minibus. The boys all have very many competing activities and of course school work, so it is up to them to make up things like missed prep. My DS took up new sports at WinColl and has done very well in them. I don’t want to be too specific. He also does music yes and about a million other things!

Thanks @FriendlyLaundryMonster very interesting. Would that apply only for the Public School circuit, or other regular events like the Leon Paul open circuits too?

I am just asking as many Leon Paul junior opens fall on Saturdays in places like London, Bristol, Manchester, Canterbury, etc. Normally I don't see (m)any senior schools on the results list, so I assume those fencers compete in their local club's colours (=individual travel) but that is just a mosaic theory and could be otherwise.

Now if it turns out that WinColl is ready, willing and able to arrange a minibus for fencers to those Leon Paul junior events (other than the Public School circuit), then that goes a long way to compensate for the Sat evening prep and Sun morning chap.

I’ve been following this thread. I have a DS at Win College. I have no interest in trying to persuade the Op that Win Col is the right place for her DS. Obviously the Op should simply sit down with or have a video call with the school (s) they are interested in for their fencing prodigy son and discuss specifics.

Otherwise I suspect this is a time waster.

Yes, we will have meetings at WinColl in June, but I do not agree that this is a timewaster.

This thread has given me plenty of new ideas and approaches. And we all know that talking the path is different from walking the path. Even if the verbatim of the promises are kept, DS will have almost no bargaining power once he has taken up a place. Which is why the ethos and general attitude of the school vis-a-vis fencing is so important.

WinColl is all about academics first, sure great but academic success rarely comes without a counterbalance (sport, music, etc). WinCol is also proud to excell in niche sports, which is truly admirable. The discovery of the real balance is empirical and happens behind the closed doors of WinCol, which is why this thread is so important.

This is why I am grateful to anyone with insider knowledge and first hand experience of fencing at WinColl competitovely, however bagatelle it may seem at first sight.

Bargaining power!!Who exactly do you think you or your child are?, fencing prodigy or not,hes just one child in a year group,Win or indeed any other decent school are not going to bend over backwards to accommodate his every wish,they dont need to .If you dont like saturday prep or sunday chapel ,then plen ty of other schools are available.
If you think Win "excel at niche sports" then you need to do some more research,they are better at niche than mainstream but thats about it,no one goes to Win for sports.

The reason I suspect the Op is a time waster is simply if indeed they are considering Win Coll for their 11 year old DS the following would already have happened for 2024 entry:

at least one visit to the school, meet with Housemasters and choose a house, registration fee paid, ISEB pretest sat, interview attended, bursary application submitted (if applicable) and acceptance fee (assuming Win Coll have offered a place) due very shortly. The Op would have a nice fat parcel with information about the school and would not need to ask questions about French Horn and orchestras (another thread Op has), quibbles about the need to attend Chapel, questions about the length of academic day, lesson times etc. The Op would have the Housemasters personal email and would drop them a line saying ‘before making a final decision could you possibly put me in touch with the fencing master and coach as I have some specific fencing questions’.

If the Op is genuine I apologise but I think they have had a lot of help from kind posters and I strongly suspect are wasting peoples time.

@nolanscrack completely agree, the Op has already had sound advice re London schools having better access to retired Olympians who coach, Millfield having a dedicated fencing salle and several coaches, the benefits of going comprehensive with far more time to attend a competitive fencing club and compete at weekends etc etc.

“Now if it turns out that WinColl is ready, willing and able to arrange a minibus for fencers to those Leon Paul junior events (other than the Public School circuit), then that goes a long way to compensate for the Sat evening prep and Sun morning chap.”
WinCol will have a budget for sports and staff and typically, lots of kids with talents in extra curricular. My nephew - when he applied and got a place - was grade 8 violin and grade 8 clarinet in Year 6 and county hockey (plus some actual serious talent in downhill skiing due to where he grew up initially). He didn’t even think he was talented - he was used to being around musicians and sportmen far better than him so he thought of himself as well rounded. He got offers at WinCol, Eton and Wellington and chose Eton.

So there are a lot of boys who apply who are talented at these schools and when they start, some continue with their existing talents and many discover entirely new ones. It is the “entire experience of the school” parents pay for and trust in. Choosing a boarding school means delegating to the school and letting the school do their thing.

These types of schools will make allowances for competitions if the kids can keep up academically, but I have only ever seen parents organise for someone to pick up and do the ferrying and chaperoning around the country (rather than the school do it). Unless it is something the school already do for a particular sport the consensus seems to be that these schools are so oversubscribed with talented kids they don’t bend over backwards and blow their budget on 1 eleven year old. Especially not WinCol that tends to do things their way and historically has had a “take it or leave it approach”, we are the “whole rather than the many parts”. I might be a few years out of date on that one though…

@Abuildingwith4wallsandtmrinsid many thanks for the insight, this is a very helpful perspective.

@BluePalette your assumptions are flawed. The process was disrupted due to a bug that has been going around, and my generation of parents didn't have the same access and had to make decisions in the dark, so playing catch-up now.

Sure, we have reached out to discuss these issues, which will happen in June.

It might be worth bearing in mind that entry to these schools is highly competitive - its not only about your opinion of them but their opinion of your DS and to a certain extent you as parents. It should be a mutually supportive arrangement between school and home so that your DS can thrive. You would be wise to engage directly with the schools rather than asking so many identifiable questions on a public forum. All their applicants are academically able and talented in sports, music etc etc. Mention of bargaining power for an 11 year old suggests you have not quite understood the ethos of these schools and will not impress in the admissions process.

Re the academics at WinColl - I’ve never felt that they were the top priority or sole focus for my DS. Far from it. It’s a given that the boys usually have interesting Dons and my DS enjoys the intellectual challenge, and will do very well, but he is active and engaged in a myriad other things - all at a pretty high level (including sport and music). He’s never let there be any compromise in what he’s driven towards. And as other posters say, lots of the boys are quite talented and driven.