State/private school university admissions

[PatienceVirtue]

Hello I was wondering if any university admissions experts can help answer a question for me.

My oldest is about to go into 6th form, currently at a selective private school. There's a lot of talk from others about leaving to go to a local, v highly regarded school (Camden Girls for those interested) which has a vast 6th form and a pretty affluent intake.

Some of this talk is around 'gaming' the system for entry into Oxbridge etc as they'll then count as state school applicants and be more likely to be offered a place.

Am I misunderstanding contextual admissions? I thought universities looked at how well the school performs at GSCE and A level when deciding on applicants rather than just whether it's state or private. Do admissions really favour someone from, say, QEB (top grammar in country), over someone from private St Craps in an under represented area of the country?

Is it just that they need a top line figure of 60%+ state school admissions and don't care where they come from?

BTW I'm really in favour of contextual admissions but not so some privileged child at a top London faith school or grammar gets favoured. It should be for those properly under represented groups. And tbh my child really not Oxbridge material so it's not a question that's personally motivated.

Stricly you are entitlted to it though aren't you if you meet those rules - eg someone might go to a good prep school until 13+ and then a state school for GCSEs to get a contextual offer or move to Buckinghamshire as they want grammar schools.

So the point is they are entitled to it if they meet the criteria. So it is very different from for example lying about where you live.

The Bristol scheme applies to 40% of children a vast number and I bet some of those children will have many more advantages than some children in the top 60% of schools.

I think different colleges and different subjects have different philosophies and weighting of the different parts of the admissions process.

One of the reasons that kids from independent schools are more likely to get into Oxbridge is that their advisors (whether parents or school) are a bit more savvy about the kinds of GSCE and A Level choices to make ahead of time, and what subjects to apply for (i.e where do they have a good shot at acceptance).

A student with less well informed advisors (or none) might apply for a famous Oxford course like PPE (12% acceptance rate) but might not have done the relevant subjects at A level to boost their chances (how many state schools offer Philosophy, Politics or Economics?). Out of 2338 applicants last year, 1604 were not even invited to interview.

A student with better advisors and more forward planning might apply for Classics (38% acceptance rate) and they interviewed 96% of applicants for Classics last year so nearly everyone had a shot. BUT a state school is less likely to offer Latin and Greek at A Level (whereas I bet nearly all independents do), and you need top marks in at least Latin OR Greek to apply. (If you have one but not the other, you do an intensive crash course in Oxford the summer before you start so that you hit the ground running).

To do Classics at a "normal" uni, you can do beginners Latin AND Greek there, or do one and Classical Civilisation/Ancient History.

So there are some practical, strategic subject-based reasons why state school students don't get in.

I am absolutely gobsmacked to see our local comp on that contextual offers list.

It has really good results and many many kids go there for 6th form from private school.

No wonder so many from the comp go to Bristol uni!

That's naughty!

@XelaM How does this fit in with the fact that Westminster, Eton and St Paul's etc. supply more kids to Oxbridge than most others combined?

This is Simply Not True, and a few seconds pondering numbers would make that obvious.

It's true that a small number of schools make up a significant proportion of the private school Oxbridge intake; but that has nothing to do with this discussion.

One of my daughter’s friends switched from a private school to a v well regarded state school for 6th form and got a AAB offer for a course for which the standard offer is A*AA. Both said pupil’s parents went to university & the pupil went to private from 4-16, sister was private all the way through. She didn’t have any learning difficulties or other problems.

The brightest children get in so academically selective state and private schools get a lot in whereas private schools for the intellectuall challenged (there are many of them) and bog standard comp don't get many in.

It would be quite useful for someone to set up an England wide website where offers made with some key data like name of university and if you are at preivate, state grammar, comp and region of the UK could be keyed in too just to see what comes out of it. My sons at Bristol had reasonably high offers (AAA and AAB) from a private school (which offers they met).

I’ve just checked a few lists too. The school that Dc went to from age 11-16 is on that contextual offers list They are now at another school’s sixth form. Their old school made it onto that ‘worst 200 schools in England’ list in January too (published in the newspapers) so I can’t say I’m surprised!
Dc got good grades despite being in a very challenging intake. Who knows though- possibly they may have hit a couple of more high grades if (like other parents) we’d flipped feeder schools/ got religion or moved house to avoid the school.
I’m happily surprised if it means that they (and others like them) may now be eligible for a slightly lower uni a Level entrance offer should they set their sights on those universities.

@merryhouse I thought there was a study published in December 2018 that 8 schools dominate Oxbridge (all independent schools) - Eton, Westminster, St Pauls were among the 8. I may have misread the statistics

Yes, Xela as those schools including a state school by the way have very selective entry so that is not surprising.

Well, imvho, if you feel the need to change your child's school in the hope of getting lower university offers and a higher chance of getting into Oxford or Cambridge, then your levels of competitiveness and paranoia are vastly superior to your child's academic ability.

Ha, well put walkaround, I did think so. It might well be that they've run out of cash for sixth form and they're putting a spin on it.

Theovertoad I'm really happy to hear that your child might benefit from this. One of our local schools was on that list too and it gets absolutely terrible results (

We must surely feel that the benefits of small class sizes, amazing extra curricular activities and the cleansing of families in poverty which brings so many difficulties, plus the benefit of scholarships for the gifted, really gives those that can afford to invest in their children a headstart ... let's be honest that's why so many of us send our children to independents.

Not that there are not many good comprehensives, where with children achieve well, with the backing of their parents and have the added benefits of being able to experience life with a wider variety of people ... but they still may be a few grades down from that Oxbridge place ... and imagine the children with little parental input in a not very good school who achieve good, if not so good as your good comprehensives or independents ... they must be truly intelligent, dedicated and deserve their place.

@PatienceVirtue and @Hepaibar I agree that children who do well in awful schools with little parental input are truly exceptional and well deserving of an Oxbridge place ahead of anyone from a private school background. However, there really is no difference between a kid from a private school background and (most) kids at QEB, Henrietta Barnett and similar insanely selective schools and the latter should not have any priority over the private schools.

I must say in my own family, I went to normal state schools (albeit in Germany where gymnasiums were similar to the English grammars) and always did well, but my brother did terribly at a good state primary. Therefore my parents decided to put him into an expensive independent school. The difference that has made to his education and his personality was unbelievable. He ended up with two First class degrees from Cambridge and from Queen Mary universities and is now doing a phd at Harvard. My parents said that the only money they never regretted spending was on education.

An exceptional child will do well anywhere (and really should be rewarded for that with top uni offers!) but normal bright child who could slip through the cracks in the local comp might just thrive in the private sector.

XelaM I completely agree that there is as much difference within the state sector as between state & private. I saw that in my kids' primary which was the place you ended up in if you didn't find faith/rent next door to the outstanding schools. As a consequence it had about three or four times as many pupils receiving FSM. It was a great school but it definitely had challenges that other local schools where many children where tutored for 11+ etc didn't face.

I suppose that's what my initial question was. When I see these headlines re. state and private admissions at Oxbridge, it seems to lack nuance given the differences within each sector. It's no good Oxbridge boasting that they've increase their state admissions if it's all a load of children who are tutored, have a teacher-parent, go to a grammar/high-performing faith school etc, etc.

how many state schools offer Philosophy, Politics or Economics

??? Philosophy and politics are offered only at a minority of all schools, state and private. Most state schools offer Economics. By the way, I am pretty sure that philosophy and politics are not considered "facilitating subjects" for top universities, and that if you want to study PPE at a stop uni you would be better off with maths and history etc.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/higher_education/2742031-Facilitating-subjects-your-views-experiences?messages=100&pg=1

C.f., "if you want to read law, don't do Law A-level" etc.

Philosophy is covered under Religious Studies (philosophy and ethics) and is offered at most state schools, ditto Economics. Dds academic private school doesn't offer Politics.

My ds's comp, which is on a number of universities' contextual offers lists, offers Philosophy (not within RS as philosophy and ethics but as a separate subject), Government & Politics and Economics A levels.

Kokeshi - facilitating subjects have been done away with by Russell Group universities: www.tes.com/news/russell-group-universities-scrap-list-facilitating-subjects

I have just seen that Fortismere is on the contextual offer list!! What?! It's one of the most sought after state schools (probably THEE most sought after comprehensive in London!) in one of the most expensive areas in London. It has a tiny catchment area of very wealthy North Londoners who can afford to move within a few metres of thw school. It's also extremely high performing. Has it mot been named the best comp in the country a few years ago?

And our local comps that really have an intake from a mostly deprived area are not on that list!!

My ds's comp, which is on a number of universities' contextual offers lists, offers Philosophy (not within RS as philosophy and ethics but as a separate subject), Government & Politics and Economics A levels.

That's fantastic - my dc's aren't in secondary yet, but the subjects offered at a-level by our local school don't include subjects like these. They're pretty uninspiring, tbh.

There are some unexpected schools on that contextual offer list - one school in my city is in the leafiest of all possible leafy suburbs, where it would cost in the region of £1m to buy a house close enough to get in (and only 67% of kids in catchment are offered places as it is). It is regularly featured on "best state school in the UK" sort of lists.

The school we ARE in catchment for has a waaaaay less affluent catchment (i.e. us!) and isn't on the list.

Yes ditto - Camden Girls is on the list as well as Fortismere and both are schools where around 70% of the pupils are high attainers on entry.

And yes a very much more mixed school near us isn't on the list.

Like I say, all in favour of contextual admissions but they've got to be robust.

I've had a look at a few universities and they all seem to follow a different approach. Some just use the list of the bottom 40% of schools as mentioned above - and I also found some surprises on there. But at the end of the day it's factual - based on progress scores. There's no other way to do it, unless you simply went by numbers on free school meals?

Other universities use a combination of this and postcode 'progression to HE' data. For some it's one or the other, for some you have to qualify under both. We live in a quartile 1 postcode and I noticed my dd would qualify for a contextual offer from Durham on the basis of her postcode and the fact that she's going to do A Levels at a state school (any state school counts).

I guess all these measures are very 'broad brush'. I'm not sure going to a 'top university' is the be all and end all anyway and I'm pretty sure dd won't need a contextual offer anyway. I certainly wouldn't make major life decisions like moving schools or house just to get a contextual offer!

Bristol took ds's school off their contextual offers list despite the fact it has been Requires Improvement for 3 years, is on its fourth head and has a FSM percentage up in the 40%. It is a very 'leafy' postcode though, so some unis just see the postcode despite the fact the school sits in big pockets of social housing as well as the £2m houses. Birmingham doesn't have it on their list, but Manchester and Warwick do. It is not as simple as one list - the universities hold their own lists and criteria.