Townley (Bexley) v Dartford Grammar for Girls (Kent) v St Michael's Catholic Grammar (Barnet)

[mcinesi]

Hi there
My daughter has recently passed her 11+ for Bexley, Kent and St Michael's in Barnet and we are now in the enviable position of having to rank them for our CAF .
We visited all 3 schools, my daughter liked them all very much and they are all roughly at the same distance (1 hr) from where we live,.
I was hoping for some help to try and understand their main strenghts and (if any) weaknesses, and more broadly their key differences (i.e. clearly size is one of them...).
Looking at recent years GCSE results, the top performing school would be (I believe) St Michael's, followed by Dartford and finally Townley, but obviously there is so much more than exam results to consider.
Thank you in advance for your help.
M

[mcinesi]

Quote
For day-to-day misdemeanours, for example, missing homework deadlines, uniform infringements, minor behaviour issues, lateness to school or lessons, failing to follow instructions etc., students can be given a yellow card, a late mark or a lunchtime reflection session.
Detentions
For more serious issues, including defiance, rudeness or failure to respond to a yellow card, students may be issued with an orange card detention, which will take place after school for one hour.
Unquote.

[Lightsabre]

It's much easier to get to Dartford from the Maze Hill area of East Greenwich as then you have the Dartford line but can also whizz up in the car to the Blackheath line to Dartford (10 mins in the car in the morning) if there is a problem. Plenty of children do this journey. There is quite a long uphill walk once you reach Dartford as I'm sure you know.

I think the Isle of Dogs is doable but will realistically take 1 hr 15 minutes or longer door to door. I would consider moving to Greenwich or the Maze Hill area if this is the option you go for. It's very tiring at secondary school and as others have said, there are after school clubs, homework, friendships to consider.

[TheRobinIsBobbingAlong]

DGGS is a very good school, but I wouldn't particularly like my 11yo DD walking alone through Dartford to the station. Even more so when it's dark.

I'm feeling quite sad for your DD. Whichever of the 3 schools you choose, she's going to have a punishing commute (factor in heavy bags/bad weather), extremely long days, and grammars are renowned for their tough homework schedules. She certainly won't be getting much down time that's for sure!

[mcinesi]

Lighsabre, thanks for your comment. That's exactly what we were thinking about - test the route/trains for the first term or so and be ready to move to Greenwich (east side of the park, most likely) if the commute is proving too much...
This will leave options open for my other 2 children as well. in terms of access to both Dartford and Bexley Grammars in the future.

[Ivoryandlace1]

OP - I'm sure you have aspirations for your child and incredibly proud of her for her achievements. We all want the best for our children.

My daughter has passed her Kent 11+ with a great score, and for her to get to Dartford Girls Grammar is an 8 minute walk. She could fall out of bed at 8 o'clock and still make it. She came out of the open morning and declared it 'unwelcoming' and doesn't want to go there. We're respecting her decision and luckily have other fantastic options.

Is the commute worth it? These schools get great results, but I often wonder whether that's because they only take the most academically gifted. Are they all they're cracked up to be?

Are there other options locally? Clever kids thrive anywhere. Can you move, so she only has to do one of these commutes for a short while?

Please have a think about your own journey to work and how it affects you. I've done the hill from Dartford train station to DGGS. It's not easy, and the walk from Bexleyheath train station to Townley is a long way for an 11-year-old after a long tiring day.

All good wishes, whatever your decision. I've found that as a parent, I've been score-blinded, and wanted to push my child into the 'best' school, but it has to be what's 'best' for them.

I hope that helps, maybe not, but good luck.

[Lightsabre]

Happy to help. If you work at the Wharf, then East Greenwich is good and a few less ££ for housing. For your other children just be aware that they'd need to be in the 'top 180' to receive a Bexley Grammar school otherwise it goes on distance of they get a 'normal' pass. Newstead and St Olaves also accessible from East Greenwich/Blackheath via school buses from either Lewes coaches or the Bromley mini bus company.

[Orchidflower1]

When is the deadline to apply op? I’d love to know what you decide( purely bring nosey!).

[Worried2987]

The walks to townley and dartford are longer than 20 mins (I've lived in both areas) youre probably better getting a bus from bexleyheath.
also consider exam years when she may have 3+hours homework to do. We revised in the mornings before school aswell as after school. If you lived nearer she would have more opportunities to find friends to revise without trekking across south London.
I'm guessing that you may work in London why don't you move and do the commute the transport is better going into town in rush hour (although having commuted on southeastern for 20+years it's still pretty rubbish especially at the worst times eg winter).
As a final "political" note if you moved into the area at least you would be contributing financially to these schools.

[mcinesi]

Thank you all for your contributions.
Some of the points I keep hearing are just so obvious that perhaps one should stop making them (i.e. why don't you move opposite the school gate so that everyone is happy?). Or even worse, implying that ooc students should not take places in these schools as their parents (apparently!) do not contribute to their funding!
Anyhow, everyone is entitled to an opinion...

[Worried2987]

Apologies I thought they were funded by the local council. But also it maybe more difficult to contribute fully to the school community living so far away. A lot of after school or weekend events may not be feasible to contribute to?
If you're interested the BBC did a documentary on townley last year which was good viewing.

[OkayGoooouuuuuullllll]

Agree with the pp who say the walks from the stations are much longer. I attended townley many years ago and lived in the area for 30 years. She could however get a bus down from Bexleyheath station but it depends if one is there or if it’s worth waiting so it could add more time on.

[Pinkflipflop85]

There is no direct bus from the station to townley though, so there would still be a walk.

[mcinesi]

Thank you for your contribution Worried2987 - that's exactly the type of (politically charged) comments I do not need...

[OkayGoooouuuuuullllll]

True. She could stay on until barnehurst and get the 602 straight there actually.

[Worried2987]

You're welcome. But I'd still recommend the documentary even though its BBC biased.

[bloated1977]

What does your daughter think about all this? Is she happy to travel so far? Does she understand she won't have friends that live locally to her? What happens when she wants to meet up with her school friends to do research projects together at each others houses? What about after school clubs. How will she attend those?

[mcinesi]

Good question, my daughter.
She loved Townley and DGSG (she's been amazed by all that is on offer - and I am not referring to the post school activities!). She knows they are far (1hr), but there is a classmate of hers who's considering DG for Boys. She loves reading, and (she says now!) she's lookimg forward to having some time on the train for herself where she can read undisturbed.
Assuming there will be kids from Greenwich (out of a 180 intake), that's 10mins away from where we are and she could be-fried these kids to start with. As she gets older, she'll be more independent, etc...
She said to me last week 'Daddy, I don't want to go to an average school!', and that was after visiting the local comprehensive, which is small / new / untested / unrpoven and with a significantly smaller curriculum. So, quite simply, I am not sending her there, and she has earned for herself the right to apply to Kent (I am very keen on DGSG - she got 391) and Bexley (less so on Townley) Grammars.

[Worried2987]

Well good luck with the applications. This is surely an argument for expanding grammar type school availability when kids are having to travel so far to attend.

[MarchingFrogs]

This is surely an argument for expanding grammar type school availability when kids are having to travel so far to attend.

I can assure you that there is another interpretation.

I want my DC to go to grammar school... Fair enough. ...so I'm going to choose to live somewhere where there aren't any and an hour's journey from any of the ones in areas where there are....

[Answerthequestion]

It's interesting that there has been a local backlash against some selective schools, with some no longer sitting HBS or QEB exams because their classmates will travel such distances that teenage meetups are few and far between

I don’t know anyone who even considered HBS or QE Boys. Too many kids being tutored to insane levels, too many kids travelling too far and not ethnically diverse. All have gone faith or private.

[crazycrofter]

@mcinesi, we were in a similar position a few years ago and I've noticed that the people who've been scathing to me about long journeys are those who instead moved to expensive houses in the catchments of good comprehensives. We couldn't afford to do that, so we were left with four local schools - 1 in the neighbouring county which has the dubious distinction of being quite 'nice' but right at the bottom of the county league tables year on year and 3 within the city boundary which all have 'well below average' progress rates. There's a lot of deprivation in the area which obviously impacts the schools.

Some children would do fine regardless, but our son isn't one of those - he's recently been diagnosed with ADHD and we knew back then he was distractible and easily influenced. So we send him on a long winded journey 9 miles across the city to the grammar he got into (unfortunately he didn't get into the more popular one a couple of miles away either).

I'm not particularly happy he has to do this journey, as it usually takes him over an hour. However, we just can't afford to move closer. And honestly, he's got used to it, he sleeps on the bus in the morning and in the evening he gets off to go to the gym at around the halfway point which breaks his journey up nicely! It helps that his school finishes at 3.05 too.

He's very happy at school and is doing well - much better than he'd do locally I suspect.

So just to say - it's not ideal and obviously we'd all prefer our children to go to a good school round the corner. But not everyone has that privilege.

[crazycrofter]

And also just to add - he enjoys the first half of the bus journey home from school as loads of his friends are on the same bus. And there is another boy that goes almost as far as him so he's not on his own...

He's quite happy to hop on the bus to meet friends at weekends/in the holidays. I've noticed that the grammar kids in our city grow up a bit quicker and just tend to be more used to using public transport and meeting up in the city centre. It's fine!

[Blue5238]

I live in Greenwich. We went to look at DGGS but in the end decided that my daughter would not sit the 11+ because I did not want her to do the length of commute involved to Dartford. Sure, some kids do. But it would leave her tired and isolated from most of her school friends. She goes to a school nearer home.

[tigerbear]

@Blue5238 - May I ask which school your DD goes to? I’m in Greenwich and trying to weigh up options for DD.

OP - I too have been researching the grammar schools and as mentioned above, I’m in Greenwich so DD would have a similar commute if we went down this route. When you mention the score your DD got, does that guarantee her a place at Townley?
Are independent schools an option? If she’s bright, and the score suggests she is, could you consider Blackheath High, for instance?

[mcinesi]

Hi tigerbear,

What are you thinking about for your daughter then, what are your options? I would be good if they could make company on their journey to school.

The score I mentioned is for Kent, so nothing to do with Townley. For Townley you need to pass and then hope to fall within the catchment area (based on distance). I am not holding my breath on that one, but you never know - distance can swing quite a bit from year to year...

Indies are not an (easier) option: there isn't any nearby, and the nearest is probably in Barbican. Also, I have 3 kids, and I would like to retire as some stage of my life ;-). On this topic, I visited Blackheath out of curiosity and I was not impressed, especially by their academic achievements.