Townley (Bexley) v Dartford Grammar for Girls (Kent) v St Michael's Catholic Grammar (Barnet)

[mcinesi]

Hi there
My daughter has recently passed her 11+ for Bexley, Kent and St Michael's in Barnet and we are now in the enviable position of having to rank them for our CAF .
We visited all 3 schools, my daughter liked them all very much and they are all roughly at the same distance (1 hr) from where we live,.
I was hoping for some help to try and understand their main strenghts and (if any) weaknesses, and more broadly their key differences (i.e. clearly size is one of them...).
Looking at recent years GCSE results, the top performing school would be (I believe) St Michael's, followed by Dartford and finally Townley, but obviously there is so much more than exam results to consider.
Thank you in advance for your help.
M

[Pinkflipflop85]

She must be able to walk bloody fast if you think she can get from bexleyheath station to townley in 20 minutes!

You're looking at more like 40 minutes, and that's without factoring in having to negotiate the crazy zebra crossings in bexleyheath and potentially walking slower if she has lots of things to carry on a particular day.

South eastern trains to bexleyheath and dartford are far from reliable as well.

[Pinkflipflop85]

Likewise, dartford station to dgsc is more than 20 minutes and is uphill.

[peteneras]

"3) St Michael's - about 1:15 hour"
DLR to Bank (9 stops, 17mins), Northern Line to West Finchley (13 stops, 31mins) + 10min walk"

Hmm. . . I thought this might be a bit ambitious. . . i.e. the minutes and total travelling time.

The following is an actual journey I took just 3 days ago on Thursday at 7.30a.m. on my way to the US Embassy near Vauxhall tube station.

1. Took Bus 221 literally a stone's throw from St. Michael's Catholic Grammar School at North Finchley headed towards Bounds Green tube station.
   
   
2. At Bounds Green tube station took the Piccadilly Line straight down to Green Park and changed for the Victoria Line headed towards Vauxhall.
   
   
3. Reached Vauxhall tube station almost exactly one hour later from start of journey at 8.29a.m.
   
   
4. Walked to the US Embassy (intentional for fresh air and exercise) from Vauxhall tube station along the side of the Thames River - 10 minutes.
   
   Total journey time: 1hour 10mins.
   
   Please note that except for the final leg, there wasn't any walking done. Both public transport modes, bus and tube, are regular straightforward runs, i.e. not much waiting and time-wasting. Also, North Finchley to Vauxhall is much nearer than to Isle of Dogs.
   
   For information:
   (a) Bus 221 starts at Turnpike Lane (Piccadilly Line) and finishes at Edgware - and of course, the opposite direction. North Finchley is one of the stops which is 2 minutes walk to St. Michael's.
   
   (b) Bus 134 starts in central London, Tottenham Court Road/Warren Street and finishes at North Finchley, i.e. St. Michael's. But the route takes an hour! It runs 24 hrs throughout the day and night.
   
   Hope this helps in your planning and decision.

[bloated1977]

Your walk time from Dartford Station to the school and Bexleyheath station to Townley are completely inaccurate. You also make the assumption that as soon as you get to the station there will be a train waiting. You could be waiting 30 mins for a train! Send them to a local school with friends they can socialise with!

[bloated1977]

Oh and I know of plenty of girls locally that have passed their 11+ and haven't got a place at either school as they are ridiculously over subscribed.

[mcinesi]

@ChloeDecker

I have proven to you that it is not multiple train and bus changes (just one!) to get to Dartford and Bexleyheath from the isle of dogs.
Surely she won't be the only one taking those trains, so the problems you mention about arriving late / detention must be a common feature of the schools for tens or hundreds of students!?
Finally, if google maps says it takes 20mins to walk from station to school (and I walked it at the open day!), why would you opt for a less direct route that takes 30 or 40mins!?

I am of course here to listen to advice, but I am trying to take a view on the basis of facts...

[mcinesi]

OK, thank you all!
Looks like the overlwhelming majority is for local school, etc.... we may start at one of the three and see how it goes!!!
Thanks again, m

[ChloeDecker]

Surely she won't be the only one taking those trains, so the problems you mention about arriving late / detention must be a common feature of the schools for tens or hundreds of students!?

No, it’s not that common with Townley students coming from north of the river. Quite rare actually. Townley themselves bus in from Woolwich etc as that is considered a long way. Not from the Isle of Dogs.

why would you opt for taking a less direct route

Due to the aforementioned troubles from another poster, re: other school children. such as those from St Columba’s in Bexleyheath town centre that your DD will want to avoid. It takes about 30 minutes plus even walking through the town centre. And it is actually more direct to go down Upton Road -it’s a straightish line. Majority of Townley students taking the train, walk down Upton Rd. Have you explored the area further, if you don’t know them? If you are only going by Google Maps for all journey routes and not actually trialling out routes, with an 11 year old and potentially two heavy bags to carry, that’s a risky move.

[mcinesi]

@ChloeDecker
You keep referring to the isle of dogs, which is not the problem here as the DLR works as clockworks... I thought your point was that the trains (south of the river) to Dartford and Bexleyheath were delayed / cancelled on a daily basis, which indeed would be an issue but I susepct for several students, not just my daughter.
If I had said we live in Greenwich, would your comments be any different? We are 5mins on the DLR to Greenwich (2 stops!).

[Pinkflipflop85]

I lived round the corner from bexleyheath station and attended townley as a teenager. The walk is more than 20 minutes.

[peteneras]

Although I dearly wished your DD would be able to attend St Michael's without all the travelling and logistical problems, I'm concerned the daily slog to and fro might take its toll at the expense of her academic performance. She's young, just 11 years old and still a child. The journey isn't just for a day, or for a month of even a year. It's for the next 7 years! All girls go automatically to Form 6 after GCSEs - no culling like in some (Barnet) grammar schools and yet the public exams results both GCSE and A- Level annually can seriously embarrass even some public (independent) schools where you pay up to £300K for the privilege.

I still remember on one cold and dark winter evening at around 7.00p.m. whilst sending my DD to private piano lessons (she was still a pupil at St. Michael's) I was quite taken aback to see a couple of St Michael's girls (easily identified by their purple school uniforms) waiting at an isolated bus stop here in north London shivering in the wintry cold waiting to go home. I reminded DD how lucky she was traveling in a warm car, now having been fed, showered and cleaned and been back from school a few hours ago whilst some of her school mates are still waiting to go home to heaven knows where.

[cheercaptain]

Nothing to add....just watching as interested in the views on 2 of your 3.

[Ionacat]

I suggest taking a pragmatic approach.
I would find out the finish times of each school and when they tend to do clubs/extra support. There isn’t much to chose between them really academics wise and they will all have a range of clubs.

Take Dartford as I’m familiar with it. It finishes at 3.30, lots of the clubs are after school until 4.30 or even 5. (You can add another hour I suspect if you are sporty and in a school team for matches.) Realistically your DD won’t be home until 6ish on a club day by the time she has left, waited for trains etc. and it could be longer. She probably have to leave around 7 in the morning so you’ll be looking at an 11 hour day. You know if your DD will cope with that or not. Most girls are going to want to do at least one club. If one of the schools does everything at lunch then that might swing it for you. At year 10 upwards, clubs may not even be an option with that commute and homework.

If your local schools are over-subscribed, then starting at one of these three and if she doesn’t cope moving won’t work as the chances are there will be a long waiting list.

I would do all three journeys in rush hour, what is it going to be like from door to door, time, waiting for trains, getting a seat etc. the length of the walks at the end, alternatives to the walks if it is tipping it down. I think you’ve underestimated the total length and if you haven’t then I’m happy to be proved wrong!
Go round your local schools, what are they like, what is the difference between the education your DD will get at one of the three you have names and your local offer. Weigh it up carefully, don’t underestimate having local friends and also potentially an extra 2 hours to herself each day. Also realistically is she going to get into Townley and Dartford, I think Townley uses distance and Dartford has a priority places before score comes into play. What are these three schools offering that your local schools aren’t and how important is this?

Some girls can cope with a long commute, but is for a minimum of 5 years and you and your DD need to go into it being aware of all the consequences.

[ChloeDecker]

You keep referring to the isle of dogs, which is not the problem here as the DLR works as clockworks... I thought your point was that the trains (south of the river) to Dartford and Bexleyheath were delayed / cancelled on a daily basis, which indeed would be an issue but I susepct for several students, not just my daughter.

My point being that your DD will be travelling further and for longer than those students from Lewisham/Greenwich. Therefore she will have to leave a lot earlier and have a very long commute-even by adult standards. Look, other people have mentioned your timings are way out so I don’t know why you are picking on me only!

[JoJoSM2]

Have you considered moving closer to the school you choose?

[Bluerussian]

I googled 'nearest grammar school to Isle of Dogs'; Bexley Grammar and Chislehurst & Sidcup Grammar are listed (along with Townley).

[DarlingOscar]

You won't get Townley - you live too far away. HTH

[malmontar]

The commute to St Michaels sounds horrible. I moved jobs so I could stop having to go on the Northern line. There are delays on a near daily basis and it's always crammed however early you leave.

It sounds like your daughter is extremely intelligent and you are determined to get her in to one of these schools. We were in a similar situation last year with our DD facing the possibility of travelling an hour to a private school. We opted for the state 20mins by bus and she gets home exhausted even from that.
If this was one train and than walk which totalled an hour than it would be different imo. She has to change and walk, she will be exhausted and imo won't be able to make the most out of the schools you're so keen for her to go to.

[peteneras]

Really OP, the logical and sensible solution as far as St. Michael's is concerned, is for you to move home; not necessarily to be near to the school itself - best if you can - but to within easy access to the Piccadilly Line in the tube system. The aim is to get to Turnpike Lane tube station. Once at Turnpike Lane tube station, you'll be almost home and dry, so to speak. All you have to do is exit the station and immediately in front of you, still within the TfL compound, is the TfL inter-change bus station where dozens of buses serving the north of London, e.g. Enfield, Edgware, etc. begin and end their journeys.

This includes the Bus 221 which runs regularly from here to finish at Edgware and is the bus that you(r)/daughter want to take. North Finchley bus station (Tally-Ho -Stop 'P') is about 15 to 20 minutes away. You are almost at the front gate of St. Michael's here at Tally-Ho!

[malmontar]

@peteneras it'll take her about an hour to get to St Michaels on the bus from turnpike lane! That bus stops at every stop and is packed with kids. She'd need to give at least an hour for that bus journey from turnpike lane to Finchley.

[FanDabbyFloozy]

The easiest thing for St Michael's is to live between Kentish Town in the south to Barnet in the north, Winchmore Hill to the east or Edgware to the west. The tubes and buses work well from around there and are all well under an hour. Muswell Hill is another great option if you're open to moving. Everything else is a bit of a faff and quickly adds up to an hour.
Nice areas to live in too.

[mcinesi]

Thank you all for your helpful comments.
Assuming academically there's not a big difference between the 3 schools, it would seem that my best option is Dartford Grammar, which seems the most doable commute (DLR to Greenwich and train to Dartford)!
If it's still proving too much for my daughter, we can then consider moving the other side of the river (i.e. Greenwich area).

[JoJoSM2]

That sounds sensible OP.

[peteneras]

malmontar, if truth be known, I've been taking this bus for the best part of 5 to 6 years and I still do so at least three or four times a week! It's so convenient and easy that I've almost given up driving! I know it looks daunting from the TfL stops that I provided but that table lists every single stop along the entire route towards Edgware many of which are isolated Request stops very near to each other that are hardly used by anybody. Also, if the bus is full e.g. during peak hours, the bus does not stop even when requested. I accept, at its very worst peak period, traffic at Turnpike Lane/Wood Green surrounding areas can be quite congested and it may add up to another 10 mins extra but that means only half-an-hour to St. Michael's.

One solution to beat the road traffic at Turnpike Lane/Wood Green area is to alight from the tube a couple of stops further up at Bounds Green station instead. But that would involve crossing over a main road to reach the Bus 221stop.

[Orchidflower1]

I know this is going to make me sound very silly OP but do these school not have catchment / preferred areas? Surely they will be filled with children more local so the choices become moot.
Apologies if this is not the case.