Doing 4 a levels

[Lunchonawagon]

Dd currently doing 4 a levels- history, maths, biology and chemistry which she started with the premise of doing maths to AS and then sticking with the others for A2. However, she’s now saying that she really loves all her subjects and wants to opt out of the maths AS exam to do the full a level (have to let the school know), saying that she doesn’t want to stop doing maths and also that she’s much more likely to get a place on her chosen degree (medicine) with maths. My concern though is that she will have much more work than her peers, who’ll be sitting the same exams having had more time to prepare, with less free periods (5 hours a week less) to study in. Am I underestimating her or am I right to be concerned about her mental health and grades next year?

[ZandathePanda]

...that should read ‘the person doing 4’.

[sendsummer]

The choice of doing or starting off with 5 A levels is more a feature of some super selective schools, state or private. I doubt very many ‘normal’ comprehensives can allow that flexibility of choice to try and less that allow trying out 4 subjects in year 12.

There are some very smart pupils that can and want to keep up with more than 4 to 5 subjects similar to the IB workload. The exam timetable is likely to cause more problems now that all subjects including maths is reformed.

[sendsummer]

I meant less than before that allow trying out 4 subjects in year 12.

[mumsneedwine]

Most schools I know allow trying out 4 and many still allow sitting 4. But this year was the first year all have been linear and it was hell for the kids who did it. And effected their grades due to exam clashes and overload. Even the brightest kids get tired !

[sendsummer]

mumsneedwine could you estimate what percentage of the year in your state comprehensive ended up by taking 4 reformed subjects at the end of year 13?

There are two issues from 4 or more A levels. Less free periods and more homework during the year (akin to IB) and the terminal exam period itself which is now more of problem.
Tiredness during the exam period will affect exam performance but for very bright students (say top 20% of a superselective) that usually means the difference between a high A star or a lower A star rather than dropping a grade. At least for STEM. Humanities are more unpredictable anyway.

[CherryPavlova]

Even pre-reform there were exam clashes. Aforementioned daughter had to have a supervised period over a lunchtime because two subjects had exams at the same time. The comprehensive my eldest did her A levels at still allows a handful to take additional A levels alongside GCSE or to do 4 in sixth form. The other schools locally don’t encourage it, as far as I’m aware.

In my experience, IB was definitely less work than 4 A levels. Our youngest did IB with two A levels alongside (unreformed As now 4the year university). Again personal choice and one of the A levels was a requirement of her scholarship.

[mumsneedwine]

We had 5 who weren't doing double maths who insisted we let them do 4. We told them we didn't recommend it, we told them they didn't need it and we told them it could compromise their grades. Having received snotty emails from their parents basically threatening to sue us if we didn't allow it, we allowed it. 9 lessons a fortnight and we are a big school so could sort out their timetables. Spoke to 4 of them yesterday at an outside school thing and all now wish they had done 3. Live and learn !!! One student doing it this year and he is a total genius and will get 4 A*s without any work. There's always one who breaks the rules 😁

[Ginfordinner]

DD took her A levels in 2018 when maths was still unreformed. A handful of students at her state comprehensive school took 4 subjects, and they all took maths and further maths. These were exceptionally bright students who took the exams in their stride.

He year was the last to sit AS exams as part of the linear A levels, so DD does have a qualification to show for the subject she dropped (an A in psychology)

I agree with a PP that anyone talking about the old style A levels ie any taken more than a year or two ago doesn't seem to grasp the concept that the linear A levels are harder than when they took them or when their DC took them. Their experiences are completey irrelevant.

I still maintain that unless the student is exceptionally bright and wants the challenge there is no need to take 4 subjects to A2.

[Grumpyperson]

I can't comment on whether A levels are harder now than when I took them, but I went to a (state) grammar school with around 120 in the sixth form and I can only remember two people doing 4 A levels. There might have been a few more but it genuinely can't have been many. This was before AS levels, and they were linear in the way they are now, with minimal coursework.

The school offered further maths but the only person I know who did FM did maths and economics, no 4th A level. She got 3 As though (in the days before A stars).

[Grumpyperson]

And I don't think there's any need to do 4 A levels unless you really can't decide which subjects to do, and can do them all well. I think the time is better spent on enrichment, work experience or just having some time to breathe.

[alwayscauseastir]

I did 4, I didn't feel like I had any less time to study from others. But I do think it depends on what subjects they are. Your daughters subjects would have blown my brain, whereas I did English, History, Politics and Business. Got two As, one B and one C. So if she thinks she can do it, let her go for it.

[Ginfordinner]

alwayscauseastir did you take them in the last 2 years? Were they modular?
If not please read the posts on here about how much A levels have changed. And achieving AABC when you could have achieved AAA just shows that three subjects would have been better than four.

I think you don't understand how much things have changed recently.

[alwayscauseastir]

@Ginfordinner I didn't do them in the last two years no, but my cousin who is now in medical school has, and I do keep up to date with current affairs. I didn't need higher grades as I wasn't going to university, so you can't really say that I could have got 3As as I didn't need to put the effort in. What I can say is that every child is different. I have never ever revised. I either know it from what I've learnt in lessons, or it just doesn't sink in. If this person is a sponge of knowledge, who knows how much they are able to take in.

[ZandathePanda]

‘Tiredness during the exam period will affect exam performance but for very bright students (say top 20% of a superselective) that usually means the difference between a high A star or a lower A star rather than dropping a grade.’

To get an A star in OCR English this year, you would have to get 94% so that doesn’t give you a huge amount of wiggle room if you are tired.

If you need A or A* I think it’s madness to do 4.

[Ginfordinner]

If you need A or A I think it’s madness to do 4.*

Absolutely agree with this.

[ZandathePanda]

The exams really have changed. English is not open book, for example, and my Dd literally (lol) could quote, word perfectly, a several hundred lines of books/plays. With quotes, there always has to be last minute practise. She did 3 A Levels, all humanities, which you would have thought they would have spread out. She still ended up doing English on the same day as another exam then two more in the same week. Physically it was really tough on her hand doing 5 hours of writing in a day. If she had carried on with her 4th subject she’d have had to fit in even more that week. And remember grade boundaries are based on percentages so you are completing with everyone else who are ‘only’ doing three, more spread out. She got AAA so that doesn’t stop her from going anywhere but she said there is no way she would have got those grades if she had kept up the 4th. Some places require an A* or two so she may have missed out if she got AAAA. All the universities we looked at, including Cambridge, said they only take 3 into account.

[ZandathePanda]

To the OP - tell them to drop history. It also is an absolute mare at exam time to remember all those dates and facts etc. then put them into an argument in the type of way the examiners mark for. The coursework takes a lot of time up too.

[Ginfordinner]

"The coursework takes a lot of time up too."

If it is anything like the geography NEA ai can concur with this.

[Fifthtimelucky]

My children were at a very academically selective independent school. The A level reforms have made no difference to their practice. Older daughter took her A levels before the reforms. Even then, the only pupils allowed to take 4 A levels were those who were taking maths and further maths. Along with the vast majority, my daughter took 3, because the school's view was that that would serve students best in terms of getting places on the most sought after university courses, including medicine.

Exactly the same approach when the younger one did her A levels (all reformed)

[Michaelahpurple]

Very interesting thread. DS2's school currently requires everyone to sit 4 A levels, which I am a bit concerned about given that he is not going to be doing further maths (possibly even not single maths) and 3 sciences plus FM has always struck me as the most sensible 4 option. I suppose possibly an Mfl if native/near native

He is only in year 9 so I have some hopes them may change before he gets to that point

[khaleesi71]

I work in admissions in a medical school - 3 good a-levels and chemistry and biology are essential - the third could be drama (for example) but the grades are essential as is a good BMAT/UKCAT score, work experience and a genuine interest in the subject. There is no specific requirement for maths unless there is interest in Intercalating with a quantitative subject. Please encourage me them to spend the time focusing on getting good grades and not grinding out themselves into exhaustion. It will show at interview.

[sendsummer]

ZandathePanda the sentence after the bit you quoted from my post said
At least for STEM. Humanities are more unpredictable anyway.
Actually as humanities are more unpredictable only concentrating on three may not guarantee all A stars even for the best.
Thanks Mumnsneedwine but what percentage of the cohort was that? My point being that there will be many more like your very bright student in a super selective cohort.

I think starting year 12 with 4 or even 5 is fine for an able cohort.

if I were advising as to whether to continue 4 A levels for year 13 I would looking at interest in subjects, end of year 12 internal exams performance, temperament for stress and whether student had a good margin in how much time they were spending on extra study in year 12.
Even without the A level qualification, time spent writing essays or doing extra science or learning a MFL in year 12 won’t be wasted.

[Ginfordinner]

"I think starting year 12 with 4 or even 5 is fine for an able cohort."

How would you even timetable 5? DD started with 4, and struggled with the lack of free periods. Do 6th forms that offer 5 subjects have fewer lessons per subject?

[mumsneedwine]

5 is madness and a total waste of time. Seems to be it is for bragging rights - look we are so clever we can do 5. You do realise that for every hour we teach A levels we expect at least an hour of independent study. So for 9 lessons a fortnight that's 45 hours with a further 45 hours of study. So 35 hours, a full time working week with approx 5-10 hours of homework and revision for exams on top. Why would you even let a student do this ? However clever. Get a life !!! Get a job. Be a teenager and have fun or play x box. Bring a rounded human counts for so much.
And ours weren't the cleverest in our year that time - they just had the pushiest unrealistic parents.

[rubyroot]

Hang on, she got all 9s!

That tells me she can cope. Why not let her do what she wants for now with the proviso if it gets too much and she's struggling in one of her subjects that she agrees to drop it. If she's bright and she's enjoying them, then why not