Doing 4 a levels

[Lunchonawagon]

Dd currently doing 4 a levels- history, maths, biology and chemistry which she started with the premise of doing maths to AS and then sticking with the others for A2. However, she’s now saying that she really loves all her subjects and wants to opt out of the maths AS exam to do the full a level (have to let the school know), saying that she doesn’t want to stop doing maths and also that she’s much more likely to get a place on her chosen degree (medicine) with maths. My concern though is that she will have much more work than her peers, who’ll be sitting the same exams having had more time to prepare, with less free periods (5 hours a week less) to study in. Am I underestimating her or am I right to be concerned about her mental health and grades next year?

[mumsneedwine]

Doing 5 of the new A levels is madness ! Why ??? So you can say you can ? Old ones I can just about understand but the new ones are tough. We have a few doing 4, mainly because it's double maths but some can't decide what to drop. But not medics. It's a weird degree as it requires so many hoops to be jumped through just to get an offer. Don't underestimate the time interviews take with prep & travel. Mine was fortunate to get 4 and a couple required over night stays. She didn't bother with offer days as didn't want to miss even more college.

[cantkeepawayforever]

Gin,

Neither school MAKES them do 5.

Both schools ALLOW some people, who really want to start 5, to start 5. 1 only allows it for Further Maths, which has I think 6 hours per fortnight not 9. The other allows it most commonly for FM, but occasionally for other subjects for exceptional students.

There are 50 hours per fortnight. Each subject takes up 9 hours - so 4 takes up 36 / 50; 5 full A levels 45 / 50; 4 + FM 42 / 50. 2 hours of PE per fortnight adds another 2, non-A level studies (e.g. EPQ, whatever they call university / careers guidance etc) another 2-3.

With 4 A-levels, that means each student has 9-10 hours of study periods per fortnight - an average of 1 per day. 5 A levels means 0-1 study periods, which is why it is only available for truly exceptional students and then only usually for the first part of Y12 to allow them to make decisions based on full information. 4 + FM means 3-4 study periods - not great, but those students may have to spend e.g. less time on Maths homework than a student might spend on e.g. History homework.

[Safiya80]

Also if all students are getting top grades in three subjects (rather than possibly dropping a grade in the fourth or fifth), then their percentage of A*-A looks better in the league tables!

[cantkeepawayforever]

I don't know anyone who has kept 5 going all through.

Most of those doing 4+ FM will drop down to 3 + FM for Year 13.

The pupil who started off with 5 different A-levels dropped 1 in mid Y12, continued 4 to the end of Y13 and smashed their Oxford offer, so it didn't adversely affect performance.

[Ginfordinner]

There are always some exceptionally bright students though, and they shouldn't be held back.

[mumsneedwine]

How does it hold them back - that's the bit I don't understand. If they can do 4 and get A*s and still have a life then that's great. But doing 3 won't hold them back from doing anything they want. Weirdly, as a teacher, I believe there is more to life than studying - although I know for some studying is all they want and that is fantastic if they get the opportunity to do this. Horses for courses and all that. Just that you don't need 4 to do medicine.

[Ginfordinner]

True mumsneed, but some mumsnetters seem to think it might. I agree with you BTW.

[dicknodick]

Really don't understand why the need to do more than 3 A levels.

There is absolutely no need to.

Have a D.C. who sat A levels summer 2019 and DC2 sitting them in 2020.

Standard 3 A levels.

[Cuddlysnowleopard]

But what if they want to study four, because they love the subjects? Not because they are being pushed/pushing themselves for the grades.

We're having a real dilemma in our house about this.

[CherryPavlova]

There is no NEED to do more but sometimes people like to do more than the minimum necessary. If that is not going to disadvantage them overall the it’s their choice.

[dicknodick]

But 4 levels are not required.

Better studying for 3 and achieving excellent grades.

Also doing some extra curricular interests on the subject they wish to study at University which will be extremely beneficial for personal statement.

[Zoflorabore]

My ds is doing 3 A levels and an EPQ and he’s beyond stressed already.

The leap from GCSE to A levels is far harder than he imagined!

[noblegiraffe]

This is Gove’s legacy, kids who would have done 3 A-levels and an AS now being pushed down a very narrow path.

[cantkeepawayforever]

Really don't understand why the need to do more than 3 A levels. There is absolutely no need to.

In the case of students I know personally, the decision to continue 4 (as I say, both local schools that my DCs go to start with 4, so that's the norm) has not been based on a purely functional decision about what is 'needed'.

For some, it has been out of a genuine love for the subjects, a burning academic drive, a wish to retain a broad base (e.g. a language alongside the 'functional' 3 sciences) from students who have found the narrowing inherent to A-levels irksomely restrictive.

For others, who have chosen 3 + Further Maths, it is because A-level Maths is insufficiently challenging for them to enjoy (and it's not an easy subject to 'read around', hence choosing the further Maths route) / they have needed further Maths as a basis to study Maths at the best universities and they have wanted to retain 2 other subjects alongside Maths, through intellectual curiousity.

Again, from the examples i have known, many have maintained e.g. county level music, weekend jobs, involvement in school / sixth form activities such as debates, shows, competitions alongside their study - it's been a route for polymaths, not those who have no interests outside their narrow A-level studies.

IB is not available in state schools locally - many of those choosing to maintain 4 broad-based A-levels might have taken that route if available.

[mumsneedwine]

And that is fantastic, that those amazing kids get the opportunity to do the subjects they love. As long as they get 4 A*s then it's all worth it. But here we were talking about applying for medicine, which is time consuming in itself, requiring outside school activities such as volunteering and work experience. As well as entrance exam(s) and interviews. Dropped grades being allowed is not as common so getting those 3 As once you e got your offers is crucial. Better to get 3As than 2As 2Bs. So if I'm any doubt do 3. And an EPQ in a medical subject so you can talk about something in depth. Good luck OP. It's a bumpy road but worth it when they make it

[dicknodick]

No doubt some students do 4 as they have an interest and enjoy that subject albeit superfluous.

The mental well-being of the student should come first. There is so much pressure on A level students to get their predicted grades. The competition for the best universities is high , drop a grade they dismiss you and move on to the next.

[CherryPavlova]

mumsneedwine Some of those who want to stretch themselves are doing medicine. My daughter is now a third year GP trainee who found GCSE dull and wanted the additional stretch of A levels alongside. She then wanted to do four full A levels. She did extracurricular and voluntary work too. It’s possible if that is your driver. The fourth, French, in sixth form was a light relief from pure sciences.

I do agree that if there is any risk then better three good grades than missing your career with four mediocre grades.

[mumsneedwine]

Yes but A levels have changed. 2/3 years ago doing 4 was very achievable. Now it's not. The new exams are tough, require lots more work and have bigger curriculum. That's what I'm trying to get across - advice needs to be on the new exams not what people did 5-10 years ago. People this year lost places as they did 4 because of poor advice from school.

[dicknodick]

I have two D.C. both went to difference 6th forms - school and a college. One sat A levels last summer the other this summer.

Neither of them advised 4 A levels as it is not required.

I didn't know anyone who sat 4 A levels.

How 4 A levels will fit into the exam timetable is another matter !

I really think you are setting your children up for some stress when it gets closer to the exams.

[CherryPavlova]

mumsneedwine. Yes, the decoupling of AS has resulted in greater pressure and less certainty at A2 - definitely for state schools and mainly for independents. Independents can still opt for unreformed Cambridge exams with AS but they don’t count for state league tables. Another advantage for youngsters in independent schools.

I think it’s really only the very top band that cann and should, consider four or more but, as ever, most should opt for three good grades. I know a number who did well with four this year but in terms of the whole picture they are a tiny minority. It has to be about the individual child.

[mumsneedwine]

Definitely about each individual child. Doing 4 with 2 maths is still achievable but 4 otherwise is going to be a big ask. Equates to about 48 hours of exams at end of year 13. In 3/4 weeks. Doable but I'm not sure I'd recommend it to all but the extremely academic. Mental health is more important than being able to brag about your A levels. Seeing the stress some students put themselves under has led me to bringing mindfulness into my tutor time. Have time to relax and be a teen. 3 will never stop you from achieving your dream and still give you time to watch Raul Paul's drag race if you wish 😁

[MedSchoolRat]

DD's strategy is that she reckons she's more likely to get at least 3xA* if she does 4 A-levels. Coz any single exam can be a disaster, so doing 4 hedges her bets against a bad day.

[dicknodick]

@MedSchoolRat

Really ?

Good luck to her.

[mumsneedwine]

Intetesting tactic and I can see her logic. Just pace yourself and if it becomes too much tell her she has until March to drop one. Year 13 is tough.

[ZandathePanda]

MedSchoolRat the person 4 at Dds school had 3 exams timetabled in the same morning. They had to spend the night at a strange house and do 3 exams morning , afternoon, morning. They didn’t do as well and didn’t get into their first choice as their first choice only counted 3 A Levels.
If you can, work out what the exam schedule was like for those subjects this/ next summer and show your DC. It makes more tactical sense spending time getting more work experience.