Reference for private schools at 11+

[PaintTime]

All of the independent schools we’re applying to at 11+ say that they require a reference from the current school as well as a formal assessment. Does anyone know how this reference is organised. Do we need to let the school know that they have to send a letter to each school, will each school contact us and ask us about this or will they go to our current school/head directly without going through us? Have no idea how it works. Thanks

At our (state) primary the school asks us to let them know which schools we are applying to just so they can keep track of things. The secondary schools contact the primary directly and you don't get involved at all usually.
Some schools ask for reports in quite a specific format, others ask for a more general reference.

The secondary school contacts the Primary school directly around Christmas time, some Primary schools charge the parents £25 per reference so you know when it's being written! The secondary school registrars are well aware of how hard it is to get a reference from some primary schools.

At our primary, we're in the middle of this at the moment. Reference requests generally come in during October and November, usually direct from the secondaries. Sometimes parents do ask us to give them something to give the school, though. Maybe best to check with the secondary school(s) you've applied to, to put your mind at rest?

Our primary provided it for us, DDs yr 6 form teacher. It was free and generic so we could use it for any school. We also got DDs sports club to write a reference as well

A reference from a state school need simply confirm dates.

If it’s from an independent school, it will include a statement about all fees being paid.

Our school wanted a personal reference not just a confirmation of dates, so SAT predictions, a bit about what kind of student she is, what kind of friend, a bit about her outside interests.

A lot of primary schools won’t give that much data, so private schools can ask all they want but they won’t get. This does not prejudice the applicant.

That seems really mean, craftygin. Is it just a resource thing? We would always give a full data and character reference. I guess if we had loads of requests it might be an isuue, but I'd be surprised if many state primaries got masses of independent candidates.

Our primary school won’t provide references at all. I’m not sure if it’s a resources thing or a ‘we don’t believe in selective education’ thing. They will send a copy of the Y5 report if asked, but nothing else.

I’ve put on the application forms that this is the school’s policy, as I didn’t want anyone to think it was a personal decision about my dd. And because it’s not a school that’s known to the independent school heads, so they won’t know that it never does references for any child.

I think it’s an ideaology thing, brisk.

Hmm, I still think that's harsh. Parents have lots of reasons for considering private ed. It doesn't help the divide by making it harder for state primary kids to get in than prep kids. Some might be going for 100% bursaries.

With some primary schools you would do better with no reference or just dates, Some heads take against some pupils for little reason.

It doesn’t change their chances.

Independent schools do not expect full references from state school applicants. They are mostly interested in willingness to pay fees, so irrelevant to state school kids. If they value knowledge about academics, they will have an assessment day.

They definitely want more than simply confirmation of dates. And I've never heard of a primary refusing to give a reference.

We had no trouble at all at our inner city primary, nor did our friends at State establishments elsewhere.

Surrey schools don’t give references to independent schools.

What, as a county-wide policy? Interesting.

I'd be surprised if many state primaries got masses of independent candidates.

you've never worked in NW London then!

If you’re in state sector don’t stress about the reference. Independent schools care much more about the results of the entrance exam and very little, if any, weight given to reference. This is based on our experience of being told by registrar at one school that they “don’t pay much attention” to references from state schools.

Our secondary required a £40 cheque to accompany the reference request! We avoided the charge thankfully as it was a navy bursary.

Where I live in Surrey, some state primaries have a good number of children applying to Independnet senior schools. They do write references but they aren't as detailed as the Prep schools write. The smaller schools which have fewer reference requests tend to just do them, but for some if the larger primaries/Juniors, the number if reference requests are significant and a drain on teacher time, so they charge £25 (last I heard anyway). It doesn't strike me as entirely unreasonable to be honest.

And I would agree that state school references aren't going to be the determining factor in an application progressing unless some serious behavioural issue is highlighted or something else really significant. The Senior schools are interested to see things like CAT scores which lots of Preps have done, but primaries haven't usually. The entrance exam will count for far more than the reference in most cases and lots of primary children get into highly selective schools, often with a bit if tutoring,mbut then lots of the Prep kids are being tutored too.

If you're looking at the independent sector, you just have to get used to paying for things.....you pay an application fee and if you need to pay for a reference, just see it as part of the cost of applying. I would be shocked if a school point blank refused to supply even a brief reference, and I have never heard of that round here to be honest.

If however, only a skimpy reference is provided, really don't worry - the Senior won't be overly surprised and knows that some Primary Heads are ideologically opposed, and will take more note if the entrance exam.

In the end, entrance exams are the big deal. References and interviews are usually just to confirm what is already thought and to highlight anything very unusual and also to allow schools to justify their choices not purely on academics, but to have whoever they like.

A strong reference can give a candidate a second chance in the event they have a bad day at the exam. A child who does poorly on the math exam but has a reference stating that their school would expect them to achieve a level 5 or 6 may be called in for an interview to resolve the discrepancy. A child with a cursory reference will be much less likely to have a second chance to impress.

I agree that a strong reference can help in cases which are marginal on the exam - it probably won't help if the candidate has bombed in the exam, assuming the school is reasonably competitive. That said, independents know that State schools often write very little and so generally place less emphasis on the reference....they don't want to miss out on great candidates because they only have a short of uninspiring reference and will find those candidates through the exam.

I guess that in the end, some state school candidates are disadvantaged by a variety of factors - they haven't been prepped for the entrance exams by their school, coached in sport or music or art in the same way, which makes scholarships more likely and they don't have the references or interview practice behind them. However, the Senior schools are very aware if this and can often tell the difference between a bit of Prep school gloss and what really matters. I think that a really bright state school child who has had at least some exam familiarisation in advance of the exams will shine and the mediocre but polished Prep pupil will be pretty mediocre in a challenging exam. Quality will out. For the less stellar state school pupil, especially those that haven't had any familiarisation before exams, I think the odds stacked against them are pretty big - but then, how many mediocre state school pupils go for academically demanding schools without preparation anyway.

Oh, and a Prep Head will often fight for a student who surprisingly doesn't get an offer, in a way a state school head is very unlikely to. Prep Heads have to play it carefully because they can't tell Senior schools that all of their candidates are fantastic and deserve places,nic they are to maintain credibility, but if they have the respect if the Senior Head, if a Prep Head phones up and asks them to re-consider and extols the virtues of their candidate, then Senior Heads will probably have another look and may take the candidate to the next stage or give an offer......the same can be true wih scholarships too sometimes. Good Prep Heads can make a real difference, but we also hear on MN about those who really don't do very much at all in terms of recommending schools or guiding parents or preparing their students or selling them to the senior schools. It's a bit like secondary schools on A Level results day - some have staff in school fighting the corner from a point of knowledge for several days, getting disappointed candidates onto great courses and others leave the students to just sort themselves out.

In our experience references from a state school don’t help if candidate bombs in exam. It’s down to performance in exam on the day at the selective schools. Maybe different if you’re at a prep with an established relationship with senior school.

Please don’t tell us, the school will request it school to school. It can’t go via the parents as they may be tampered with!