St Cats Bramley and foundation maths

[pieinthesky1]

I've just found out that St Cats has girls doing foundation GCSE maths. No doubt helps to improve the stats. When is this decided? Does this happen at any other selective schools around Guildford? I don't think Tormead does, my friend's DD is there. What about other selective schools in the area?What about foundation in other subjects? Just interested as it ridicules all the league table results!! We need to decide where to send our DD as has several offers, including St Cats.

Homebythesea
I don't suppose at a school as selective as St Cats that there are very many of those type of problems. They also do a science entry test at 11+.I do take the point on excessive tutoring to get in though.

I taught in selective schools all my teaching life and in the old GCSE, I saw no reasons for any kids to be entered for Foundation.

However, the new one is a different kettle of fish altogether. I was in the unfortunate position of head of Maths in a selective school where I had to decide to put some kids in Foundation. For some of the kids who would never go on to do any more Maths after GCSE, and quite weak at the subject, it was a relief for them actually.

This school might be selective at the point of entry but many things can happen during the 5 years of secondary school. Anything could have happened at school or at home for some kids to go off track.

I taught in one of the super selective grammars before. This one was and is still regularly in the top 5 in the country. Every 2 or 3 years, there was one or even two kids would go totally against the norm and failed Maths or English or both.

It is very difficult for us from the outside to judge if the school is doing the right thing or not.

fluffyrabbits do you really think that the top performing schools have no pupils with dislexia, discalculia, dispraxia, autism/Aspergers or other learning issues? Of course they do. Kids can be super talented in all sorts of things and have a weakness in a specific area.

And as pp have said squeaking in after extensive tutoring for entrance exams which covers a more basic curriculum than the GCSE does not guarantee ability to perform at GCSE (been there, got the T shirt 😉).

For students who are never going to do a moments maths ever again after GCSE the bottom line is to pass to avoid getting in to the never ending vortex of retakes. If that means, for a variety of reasons, taking Foundation papers I can’t see what the issue is. Certainly no reflection on the school, or the ability of the teaching staff, but everything to do with the well being of the student

Agree absolutely with homebythesea ^

homebythesea
I'm sure they do have children with these problems but not at a level that means they need to do foundation exams. At my DD's school (considered to be not the highest tier selective) last year a 6 in Maths would have been the worst result and the year before a B.They must be well taught...

fluffy fantastic for your school, well done

My discalculic DD (and many like her) would tell you that it’s nothing to do with the teaching. I really don’t get the slightly sniffy attitude. As I’ve said, for any student the bottom line is passing and I’d think more of a school that looks at each student’s needs and achieves that pass rather than flogging through a paper they are sure to fail.

If we were talking about the reformed 9-1 maths GCSE it would be quite understandable that some would be entered for foundation as Higher is brutal, however St Cats didn’t enter its pupils for the reformed GCSE.

moblegiraffe I have previously really appreciated your knowledge in this field by the way - thank you for contributing as you do, it really helped me last year when going through this with DD

I would say my basic premise applies whatever the style of exam : some students just can’t cope with the higher syllabus and are better served by consolidating knowledge to get them through the subject with a pass so they can move on with what they are skilled/talented at

I agree that some students need to do foundation, I’ve taught enough of them.

I’m just surprised that those students would pass an academic test to get into what people have said here is a highly selective school, and then struggle that badly.

Maybe the entry tests aren’t what I expect? My friend’s kid just sat the 11+ and it was really hard maths and English so I’m a bit confused.

That's exactly what I was saying all along!!!

Of course, foundation is the best for many. This whole thread began with pieinthesky being surprised it was happening at a school as selective as St Cats.

My DD passed entrance exams - after a lot of tutoring. Entrance was probably based on an average over all subjects. She also was entered for (and got) a scholarship for a non academic area. It was when topics became more difficult in the maths curriculum that her issues became apparent and an EdPsych was brought in. She was entered for both higher and foundation and the decision was taken very last minute which one she took. I’m sure this is not atypical

I will grant you it was not “as” selective as St Catherine’s

I still don’t get why it’s a reflection on the school which is where OP was coming from

Because I guess if you’re paying a shedload of money and the school gets to pick and choose their students from the best, using whatever criteria they like and some of those students are heading to scrape a pass, you might wonder what you are paying for.

For reasons previously mentioned it’s not necessarily down to the teaching - I thought you of all people would accept that?

Entrance was probably based on an average over all subjects.

Ah, the test I saw you had to achieve a good level in both maths and English, it wasn’t an average.

it’s not necessarily down to the teaching

I did say later that mental health/poor health could also be an issue. I guess if the entry test doesn’t require a high level of maths skill then that could also explain it - the test I saw if you passed you could pretty much scrape a GCSE pass at the same time.

I’m only assuming it was an average. They may have relaxed something in light of the scholarship subject. Who knows? At the time maths was difficult but not a struggle. It became so later and was diagnosed as discalculia.

I’m annoyed by the attitude that a few students “merely” passing GCSE maths (which for them
Might have been a fantastic achievement) is something to judge them and a school on. But I’ve said enough here

homebythesea

I would never think that it's something to judge an individual pupil on and you said your DD wasn't at a superselective anyway.

I just get annoyed with schools like St Cats, who claim to be educating the best by showing off their averaged (I)GCSE scores in league tables. It just gives the impression that everyone else has been stuck in a box and needs to be hidden!!

Interesting to read this tonight about St Cat's as completely coincidentally I also found out today that the daughter of an acquaintance was being considered for foundation maths there after the results of mocks in January and I was similarly amazed that this was even an option in the school!

Yes interesting. If you look at Tormead's website they have the last 4 years of GCSE results available to view, it looks like 3 pupils in 4 years got a C in Maths and everyone else got a B and above and mostly A*/A. Very interesting considering St Cats would consider themselves to be a peg above!!

Ah yes, the school league tables - lies, damn lies and statistics!

An increasing number of school heads warn against setting too much store by them. This is because some schools have become too focussed on micro-managing their results by teaching to the test to the jeopardy of their pupils' wider education. See www.telegraph.co.uk/education/educationopinion/12129765/Why-Wellington-will-no-longer-feature-in-league-tables.html .

One local private Guildford girls' school has even been known to require a pupil (who had missed a lot of school due to illness) to sit her public examinations as an external candidate at an unfamiliar local school, rather than risk her results jeopardising the school's prized ranking in the school league tables. This was hardly in the interests of a pupil already disadvantaged by missing teaching time through illness. I would caution anyone against selecting their child's school purely on the basis of its league table results.

It's so tempting for time-poor parents to be sucked into viewing them as a quick and easy measure of a school's performance but there really is no substitute for doing the spade work of viewing all of the schools you are considering, reading all of the blurb on websites and in prospectuses and asking the relevant questions of their heads.

With technology evolving apace, experts are increasingly warning that employers will need employees who can evaluate and sift information quickly and make decisions as appropriate. Skills such as critical thinking, problem solving, independent thinking and learning, leadership and creativity. An education promoting the learning of these skills is surely the polar opposite of an education involving being taught to the test. See uk.businessinsider.com/wef-report-skills-workers-need-2016-1/?r=US&IR=T .