A level choices - facilitating subjects again

[Ireallydontseewhy]

Feel sure I must have missed a thread on this, as it is the right time of year, but.... Another dc coming up to A level choices, and we're wondering is the Russell Group booklet on 'facilitating subjects' - Informed Choices - still up to date? Seeming a bit more restrictive this time round, now that many dcs are going to be doing only 3 subjects rather than 4 in sixth form. If anyone knows if it is still considered up to date I would be most grateful! Still available on the internet so I assume it is (or I could e-mail the RG, but always nice to get mners views!)

bojo a case of lies, damned lies, and statistics perhaps. Plus the subject tables may tell rather more.

I was surprised at Bristol's overall position and indeed that for a few others.

However filter (on CUG) for Graduate Prospects and Bristol is almost within the top 10, although still below Surrey but above Exeter. Manchester only just in top 30 though ??? Whether what is actually measured to compile each of the three tables is really meaningful is a whole other question. Similarly Bristol is well placed for entry standards. Student Satisfaction seems to be the current achilles' heal, bottom quartile, although better than Edinburgh which props up almost every other uni.

sorry op for the digression from A level subject choices

Presumably a milk round university is one from which big firms recruit graduates in what was called the milk round when I graduated in the mid 1990s. I don't know how that process has changed since then. As an employer who has read a lot of cvs I can agree with what an earlier poster said - I would consider degrees from all those top 20/30 universities as valuable as each other with the exception perhaps of Oxford, Cambridge and Imperial (for science) . A levels are a very useful measure particularly if someone got AAA twenty years ago! (I am looking for teachers so A levels are relevant and I realise they won't be in all jobs).

Bristol is well placed for entry standards due to the lingering perception (particularly by private school and grammar pupils) that it is a top place so relatively high quality and number of applications. Bristol is not doing particularly well according to a number of measures - not just student satisfaction. I think the slip down the league tables is correlated with real issues (in my subject area).

Surrey is doing well in many league tables as their ex-vice chancellor focussed strongly on improving metrics measured by league tables. Whether Surrey deserves to be top 10 is debatable. (I wouldn't send my DC there in my own subject area, if they had the choice of other top 10 universities.)

The discussion of RG v non RG detracts from the whole point of the informed choices booklet: many students still pick A levels without looking at university requirements and unwittingly exclude themselves from their desired courses. Many schools and sixth form colleges give extremely poor advice about choices of A level subjects for particular degrees e.g. law A level is never needed for a law degree and is not favoured by top universities. But doing two facilitating subjects plus another subject is almost always going to be fine, provided essential prerequisites are included.

I suspect that most MN children make perfectly reasonable choices, which keep open lots of options. But it is sad to see students with strong grades and poor subject combinations being excluded from the courses they want to enter. (E.g. prospective engineers having design technology and psychology but either no physics or no maths.)

Interesting.
Also surprised to see Bristol so low.

OP - I think you might be better off thinking on a subject basis - what courses do you think the person concerned might want to study then optimise around that. If medicine was on the agenda then RG would take a distance 3rd place behind getting into a med school at all and making sure you do a balance of the right A levels and extra-curricular relevant stuff. If you want to do subject X and only X maybe focus on which unis are good for X and worry about RG secondly. Depending on what X is you will find islands of excellence in X both inside and nowhere near RG. I'd steer clear of overall placings but do something similar on a subject basis, and take into account REF placings, employment and teaching quality.

I think of the 'milk round' as the employers actively going to certain universities to advertise their graduate jobs and to encourage applications. Possibly also including first round interviews at the university rather than having to travel to the company.
(graduated in 1980s).

Thanks all again - all very interesting! Including the digressions - beauty of mn! Boys, not quite at that stage yet - dc hasn't really any concluded views but i'm thinking about it ahead a year as have been discussing some current year 11s' choices - and it is difficult for them! The discussion about keeping options open pasted below is interesting - you do really have to decide if you want to do a science degree or not when deciding on a levels - which to be fair has always been the case.

Has anyone taken the plunge and done 4 a levels this year - if so is the workload very hefty?

DD's college is still recommending people choose 4 A'levels. As do most if not all schools locally (the highly selective girls school which only does 9 GCSEs still does 4 subjects at least to As).

DD's school ask the students to choose 4 A levels with the option of dropping one after year 12.

Unfortunately for DD she doesn't know what she wants to do at university, and personally, I think it is a big ask of a 15 year old to know what they want. She is one of the youngest in her year and isn't very mature or grown up for her age.

She is in the top set for maths and is being pressurised to do maths A level by the teachers, but she hates maths and finds it difficult. So she is opting for biology, geography, psychology and art with a view to dropping art. She already has a grade A for her art GCSE, which she took last year. I know that two of these options aren't considered facilitating subjects, but I'm not sure that taking maths or chemistry and getting a lower grade would be that useful.

Yes i have heard of some schools recommending 'choose 4 and maybe drop one at end of first year.'
of course you dont get an as level anymore if you drop that subject (assuming the school has gone linear, which most seem to be) - but you do get a chance to keep options open a bit longer, and you also may be more inclined to try something you're not sure about but would like to have a go at. Its More expensive for the schools to teach 4 than 3 i suppose.

Yes dreamgirls that's what i wondered - is the content now going to be greater, so that 4 is a real slog? Back in the old days i knew nobody who did 4 unless 4th was maths (and those people did 5! Took further maths as well). Anyone doing 4 humanities/arts a) didnt exist anyway where i lived and b) if they had, would have been regarded as an utter genius!

Crossed posts bunbaker - yes, 4 with option of dropping one would be ideal for dc as well. But not available at current school!

I agree - A lot of Teenagers change their mind in yr 12 about what they want to do - and as you say, 15 is young to make that decision. I also agree about maths and chem - they are hard, and noone should be pressurised into doing them if they're not keen and find them difficult!
Does anyone have views on the epq instead of 4th a level? It doesn't seem to keep the ucas options open in the same way - and is not a facilitating subject! But do the students tend to enjoy it?

of course you dont get an as level anymore if you drop that subject

If you take the AS exams at the end of Y12 in linear subjects, you can still obtain an AS level in that subject! The difference is that now AS level exams for linear subjects don't contribute towards the final mark at the end of Y13. This means that some schools are no longer offering AS level exams and concentrating on the exams at the end of Y13. It costs the sixth forms both extra money and teaching time to offer the new AS exams.
Looks as if unis will be making offers based on 3 subjects at the end of Y13 and won't be discriminating either for or against sixth formers who take AS levels in Y12 and those that don't. (That's according to the websites that I have looked at).

I think if you're one of the lucky people who is equally good at science and humanities I'd do science A levels because you can get onto a humanities degree with science A levels but the opposite is not possible.

Otherwise, just do what you are good at and enjoy. Ultimately you are more likely to get on decent degree course with three good grades, even if they are not traditionally facilitating subjects than you are with 3 Es in facilitating subjects. And you have to enjoy the two years of A levels too, it's not just a means to an end, sixth form should be fun. If you later decide that you want to do a degree in a subject that you don't have the right A level for you could always take a year out and do it at night school. What you do at sixth form doesn't mean you can never make a different decision in your life.

There were two girls at my school with unusual subject combinations, one did Chemistry, German and Economics and did law at Oxford, the other did law elsewhere with Chemistry, German and Biology. Admittedly both the people who did Music A level went on to do Music degrees.

Cats yes that's true, i was assuming that the school wouldn't offer the as level exam - some seem to have made that decision. With others that still talk about as, it's harder to tell whether they just haven't updated the prospectus yet! (Though that would be odd as we're now well into the new system). Dc's current school won't be doing the as level exams.

Interesting that the univs are still looking for the traditional '3'. At one time i thought some were announcing that they regarded as level as v useful info and hoped schools would go on doing them - but i suppose if enough schoold don't do them, they might risk losing good candidates if they did give preference to those with as results.

I agree bored - do what you're good at and enjoy has always been good advice! And yes, there are 'many routes' to destinations - in fact career changes seem much more common these days.

I don't think the universities have much choice, they may well prefer to have the AS exam results but sixth forms (especially those not part of schools as they have to pay VAT) can't afford to do that with the funding cuts so if the universities don't accept the changes they will be missing out on good candidates.

Interestingly the 'value' of AS results has been reduced, they are now worth fewer that half the A Level UCAS points (the whole points system has changed but this seems to be the biggest difference as far as I can tell).

Again around here all schools still seem to be doing ASs in all subjects at the end of year 12, then if necessary resorting those papers as part of A2s/A'levels in year 13

In our area, state sixth forms are still offering AS in all subjects (including the new linear ones) whereas the independent school pupils are only taking AS exams in the non-linear subjects. All schools still seem to be offering 4 subjects in Y12 though.

Back to the facilitating versus non facilitating subjects though......
Aren't more subjects facilitating if they are needed for particular degrees?
For example if you want to take a degree in Art then Art is a facilitating subject etc.
So the main purpose for the facilitating subjects list is keeping options open for pupils who haven't made up their minds about degree choice yet!

My school is advising 3 A levels to the vast majority (only the very bright are able to take 4) as the specs themselves for those that have been updated are are a lot more difficult with a lot more content being covered. We are though sitting the AS in all subjects

The variation is interesting. I think people doing Further Maths are still taking 5 around here.
It will be interesting to see the long term consequences.
I do live in an area where a very high percentage of students will go to Oxbridge or Russell Group unis.
I do actually think that State schools would struggle to fund more teaching time, so may well require the extra material to be self studied to some extent.

In the 80s only the really bright did 4 A levels, and even then generally that included double maths. I know my DB, 14 A grade O levels, 'only' did 4 A levels.

I believe our local 6th form colleges have now retrenched from everyone starts with 4, back to the GCSE A/A* people start with 4 (or possibly 5 if doing double maths), but those with GCSEs at A/B or B/C start with 3.

All very interesting, so much variation in what the schools are doing - i really hadn't realised. I suppose there may be more convergence in a few years time, but for the moment it's hard to know what is 'best advice' to a dc. 3 A levels seems safer - but not if large numbers of dc are doing 4 and universities will regard that as a 'marker' of something or other. Especially if the dc isn't doing the as levels. What do people think of 3 a levels plus epq?

And yes, back to 'facilitating subjects' - yes, it does always depend what you want to do afterwards - not much use dropping art if you want to do art post sixth form! The difficulty comes if you're not sure at age 15 - then at least if you start with 4 you can postpone decision day..

Going to be 3 A levels (no AS) plus EPQ at ds's school (independent) - with the exception of Further Maths as a 4th.

I think it's the right decision except for scientists who might want to keep a language or a humanity for breadth, although they can use the EPQ to demonstrate breadth. School has being doing EPQ for a few years and seem to think it's resulted in lower offers for many students.