Tell me we haven't lost the plot to be turning down a grammar place for DS

[LegsBenedict]

I posted about this back in October here. DS unexpectedly passed the 11+ but didn't want to go to the grammar school in the next city (and county - ours is a non-grammar county) and I was umming and ahhing about whether or not to put it on his secondary application form. I did in the end, but not as our first choice.

After I posted, we visited a superb comprehensive in another city in the opposite direction, on a whim, and both felt it was our absolute favourite, a brilliant fit for DS - academic, super results, amazing sports, etc. So we put it on the form as DS's first choice. It's massively oversubscribed and he didn't get a place (he's way down the waiting list). Cue mega disappointment, as we felt this was the perfect option between the grammar he didn't want to go to, and a nearby comprehensive I was finding a bit underwhelming.

In the end, the place he got offered was at the nearby small rural comp. It achieves average/slightly better than average results, is "good" according to Ofsted, and has a value added score in the high 900s (could be worse - but not a patch on the super comp he missed out on). Lots of kids in its catchment go private or to further-away grammar schools/comps, so I question how well placed that leaves it to support kids working at high levels. It's never over-subscribed. But still, DS has got comfortable with the idea of going to this comp. Most of his class mates are going, and they're nice kids.

Two days ago, unexpectedly, DS was offered a place at the grammar - he'd remained on the waiting list and a space has become available by a whisker. We've talked a lot, and DS still doesn't want to go, for a host of valid reasons (it's single-sex, heavily religious, is difficult to get to, has a claustrophobic and tired campus, he knows no one there, etc). It would be difficult for us logistically - I honestly don't know how I'd make the grammar work with transport/work/DS being able to participate fully in after-school clubs (he wouldn't be able to). Also, the grammar's value added score is no better than the comp's ... and yet I still feel like we'd be passing up a coveted opportunity by turning it down.

DS has a good work ethic and is a pretty sensible, balanced lad - people are telling me he'll do well anywhere. And the comp should, in theory, be able to support DS to achieve at the same level as the grammar. In theory. I have to let the grammar know by tomorrow if we want the place - and I feel whatever decision we go for will be wrong in some way. And if I insist on the grammar, I think DS's trust in me would plummet, where his thoughts and feelings have factored into this process so much until now.

Any words of wisdom? Anyone else gone for an OK comprehensive over a grammar, whether by choice or circumstance, and it's worked out well for their DC? I guess there's still the outside chance DS will be offered a place eventually at the other (super) comp.

[Doggygirl]

Take the grammar school place.

I went to a "good" comprehensive, but it had none of the advantages of the local grammar.

[ElizabethHoover]

agree

the private school kids OFTEN struggle

[Phineyj]

I don't think the journey sounds excessive - many grammar students have long journeys - but it's very important he feels motivated to make the journey. He can shop around for sixth form later if he wants.

[StationeryOrdering]

I'm sure you've thought about this, but what may seem a big deal at the start of Y7 - commute, friendships from primary - soon fade.

[SquidgyMaltLoaf]

I went to the local good but not outstanding comp instead of the single sex grammar miles away. It was absolutely the right decision for me - I would have been miserable at the grammar. Having said that, a friend of mine went to the grammar and did very well and was happy - although the people who did go there eventually moved to the town the school was in due to the commute.

I've also taught at grammars and seen students who absolutely thrive there and others that are miserable and would have been much happier at a comprehensive. Only you know which category your ds is most likely to fall into.

[Shallishanti]

Hi
we did this (turned down the grammar school place)
not entirely the same situation as you, since both schools were easy to get to, but the grammar was single sex, and the comp had things I was not so keen on...but DS did fine, went to good university, all was fine. If the child is bright and prepared to work, it will be fine.

[rumbleinthejungle]

My eldest DS decided he didn't want to go to grammar so went to the local comp. It was a disaster as it wasn't 'cool to be bright' He went from a hard worker at primary to someone who did the bare minimum at high school as he didn't want to stand out as being clever. Needless to say his younger siblings are at grammar school!

[amothersplaceisinthewrong]

DOn't underestimate the advantage of going to a nearby school. You son might be very isolated in the grammar school. Plus if he andn you did not expect him to get in, could it be that its standards are not as great as you initially thought and that lots of places have been turned down.....

So you could potentially be sending him to a not so great school (I would run a mile from sending a son of mine to it from your description) where he has a long journey and a poor social life. Go for the comp.

[Floggingmolly]

Take the grammar place. An 11 year old is not mature enough to take that decision for himself.

[admission]

Stop beating yourself up over this, you have, with your child, made a sensible decision taking everything into consideration and unless it is real nightmare school he will succeed.
Some grammar schools are not all that good schools in truth and just live on the high attainment of the pupils.Some have found out to their cost when Ofsted called that progress is important not just that they get a grade C in the subject at GCSE.

[HairyMcMary]

"Grammar schools are just schools with some clever kids, they don't have the monopoly on clever kids"

There's nothing to suggest he would be at the bottom of the grammar sets - his pass was unexpected because they hadn't planned for him to enter, he did it on short notice and with no preparation or tutoring. His place is waiting list because they live miles out of catchment.

Also the OP hasn't said the convenient comp is 'poor' .

Lot of MN-ers who would not pass the Comprehension test

OP -in your circumstances, given your DS's feelings and the logistics and expense, I would choose the comp.

[StationeryOrdering]

The sports thing you mention in the other thread was another thing that swung it for us. You just have to weigh all of it up I guess.

[HydrochloricTulip]

My ds is like your ds. We turned down the grammar school place in favour of a comprehensive which had just had a bad OFSTED but he wanted to go there. He got all a* and a in the gcse mocks. Best decision we made.

[Variousrandomthings]

He will make friends which ever school he goes to

[LegsBenedict]

Thank you all for your posts. Some helpful food for thought.

To answer some questions, in no particular order:

• We can't visit schools this week as they're closed for the holidays. We tried calling the super comp to see if DS has moved up the waiting list, but their office is closed until next week.
  

• We have no grounds to appeal our unsuccessful application to the better comp: we're way out of catchment, and allocation is done by as the crow flies.
  

• The 11+ for this grammar operates a pass/fail system - point score is irrelevant. Places are then allocated to those kids who've passed on an as-the-crow-flies basis, once other priority cases have been considered (FSM, practising Christian, etc). DS is the next to be offered a place - "by a whisker" being in terms of distance.
  

DS and I have read through and discussed all your responses, and on balance, he's still favouring the OK comp. I think I am too. I've also chatted with a teacher friend about this at length tonight. She did a bit of digging and said that while the school's results are good compared to all schools, compared to other similar schools, they're nothing to write home about at all - which I guess is consistent with its value added score being

[HairyMcMary]

Not a grammars are good ; I think your Ds's instincts about this one seem sound.

My DC is a high achieving child in a comp and is doing fantastically.

Also wrt to the either / or on humanities: it is like that gor the core GCSE choices at DC's comp: 1 humanity, 1 MFL, but then you have 4 additional choices which include the other humanity, other MFLs and other subjects. So you can end up doing both. Also, if 6 students want to do a GCSE they will teach it. So at our school Latin is not on the curriculum but if 6 students request it they will teach a course. So worth talking to the school, they might do the same.

[rootypig]

Single sex (male), religious, claustrophobic, tired, logistical nightmare and your son doesn't want to go.

No, you are not mad.

Your DS sounds like a lovely, thoughtful boy who will thrive in a comp. Agree with Laurie wholeheartedly, as usual.

[pootlebug]

Whilst I don't think the issue that his friends don't go there is a big deal, as I don't think he'd struggle to make new ones, the fact that it is so far away does make things difficult socially….it means that most of his friends will also be a significant distance away, which adds more 'commuting' at weekends to hang out with his mates etc.

There are plenty of parts of the country where there isn't a grammar school choice at all - and bright kids thrive in decent comprehensives.

I turned down my place at Cambridge to go to a Uni that did a course that was more my thing…..leading to massive outcry from school, friends parents etc. I'm grateful that my parents were supportive.

[Duckdeamon]

"DS creating his own grammar experience, seizing opportunities, etc."

Have you considered how he might handle peer pressure not to be a geek and work hard? Or disruptive classmates (at either school, but more likely at the comp).

I went to an average comp and was bright, highly motivated and hard working . There was no way I could make the experience anything like grammar school. Disruption in class. Limited subject options. Teachers focused on the lower or average achieving DC (targets etc) and many lessons boring. Resources poor (a small school might have very little money for staff, books, equipment). Peer pressure (especially among boys) not to work or achieve. No extracurricular activities and little available locally outside school either. Parents worked FT and not well off so couldn't provide tutoring or the "enrichment" often talked about on MN outside school.

Whether or not the grammar "adds value" significant numbers of boys get very good academic results. That'd be a very big factor for me given how competitive labour markets are now. Do you have the stats for the comprehensive on how many DC get 9 A-CGCSEs or even 9 A/B results?

As PPs have said, friendships could easily change so shouldn't be given too much weight. If he objects to religion he can easily withdraw from worship in assembly and so on. The transport issue might also be solved, eg you could both seek out the other local DC/parents with DC going (or in higher year groups) and see if they would be willing to give lifts sometimes in exchange for something else you could do. Single sex thing is more tricky but scope to change schools for sixth form.

[rootypig]

It's not a valid reason to turn the grammar down.



It seems a perfectly reasonable basis to turn a school down. There are many, many benefits to your children being in a local school, and ime commuting at any stage of life has had a huge effect on my well being. You make it sound like the OP is agitating over the colour of the uniform, or something equally frivolous.

[Duckdeamon]

Pootlebug, there is a big difference between deciding on university at 17/18 with the secondary experience under your belt, decent GCSE results and A levels "in the bag" to deciding on secondary school at 10/11.

[rootypig]

Indeed Duck. You could spend most of your education miserable, rather than a mere three years of it

[SoupDragon]

Isn't the "value added" score a little misleading? Isn't it easier to add value to average children than to the bright ones who have passed the 11+ and therefore start out as high achievers?

I'm not really sure how it works though.