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Secondary education

DS has unexpectedly passed 11+ - should we apply for grammar place or stick with comprehensive?

62 replies

LegsBenedict · 20/10/2014 15:06

DS (10) sat the entrance exam for an isolated grammar in the next county (we have none in our LEA). He decided in early August to give it a go. We assumed, because of last-minute prep and no external tutoring and how far out of catchment we are, that he probably wouldn't pass – and even if he did, that he wouldn't get in with us living so far away – but he fancied the challenge so went for it anyway, for experience as much as anything. He did pass, and we've been told he has a 50:50 chance of getting a place if we put the school as first preference on DS's secondary application form.

This has put us in a bit of a quandary, because we just hadn't thought it would be an option. DS had homed in on a reasonable comprehensive about a 15-minute drive away – compared to the hour-long public transport trip he'd have to and from the grammar. Transport would be an issue for us. I would have to pay for it as DS's dad and I are not together, and maintenance payments are erratic. The grammar is also in the opposite direction from where I work, should transport not work out sometimes. I work full-time. Whatever we go for has to be affordable and workable for me (as opposed to me and DS's dad as a team).

I've spoken to the comprehensive about how well it caters for kids of DS's ability. It streams for most subjects from Year 8 and seems to get good results with these children. Overall (across all ability levels), 55-70% of pupils achieve at least five A*-C grades including maths and English, depending on a given year's cohort – so not bad but not consistently better than mediocre either. It feels like a nice school – friendly, outdoorsy, relatively few behavioural issues. It has been rated 'good' by Ofsted. But there are curriculum restrictions – geography or history, French or German – and I think pupils taking the academic route tend to sit only about eight GCSEs, occasionally one or two more. I don't mind this if they get eight good grades and have reasonable subject choices.

The grammar is in a different league – super high-achieving – with Latin and other foreign languages in the mix too. Otherwise, it's not too dissimilar subject-wise from the comprehensive – but a lot more GCSEs are taken. There's more, and very competitive, sport and DS loves sport. But the day is longer, there's way more homework, and DS would lose a few hours a day to travel on top of that. He wouldn't know anyone there (his closest friends are planning to go to the comprehensive he likes). And it's single-sex and he really likes having friends who are girls too. He is bright, has been working at level 5 (6 for maths) for close to a year and picks things up so fast, but is quite down-to-earth too – he isn't the kind of kid who comes home and wants to immerse himself in a book; he likes Xbox, his friends and lives for football. He really enjoys school, and his teacher has been superb at challenging him and taking him as far as he can go – but he likes the cut-off at the end of the day and then having his own life and doing his own thing, which I fear he wouldn't get enough of if he were to go to the grammar.

I feel that he has the chance of a highly rigorous academic education at the grammar, and all the opportunities that could lead to in his future, but I'm not convinced he'd be as happy there as at the comprehensive. And he'd have to sacrifice a lot more time to school/travel. But I don't want him to go to the comprehensive and then under-perform. I still want him to achieve what he's capable of. And I feel guilty (and a bit mad?!) to be contemplating throwing away the possibility of a place at a school that other parents seem to have invested their lives (and wallets) in for years.

So to the secondary application form ... WWYD?

OP posts:
Essexmum69 · 20/10/2014 15:54

As long as the journey is do able, I would put the grammar as first choice and the comp as second. If things dont work out at the grammar school, the chances of getting a place at the comprehensive later are much better than the chances of moving to the grammar school if the comp doesnt work out.

AtiaoftheJulii · 20/10/2014 17:22

Fwiw, my son goes to a single sex grammar - and I would have been more concerned about that if he didn't have three sisters, I think, although it is a great school for him - and he is constantly on Xbox/computer playing games and skyping his friends, and plays football most breaktimes Smile

But you're right that you have to choose the option that is actually practical. Good luck. And well done to your son!

pusspusslet · 20/10/2014 19:31

Well done to your son! To pass with no special prep suggests that he's just the sort of child they're looking for, and the fact that he wanted to have a go suggests that he's interested.

I agree with Essexmum69: put the grammar as first choice and see what happens.

Best of luck with whatever you decide.

oddsocksmostly · 20/10/2014 19:35

I think the commute of an hour each way would put me off to be honest, unless there was a chance of you moving nearer.

amyhamster · 20/10/2014 19:38

what does he want to do?

LynetteScavo · 20/10/2014 19:45

I think you should go and look around both schools during the school day, and get a real feel of the schools.

I was in the opposite situation to you, as I live very close to a grammar, but chose to send DS1 to a comprehensive in another tow, and so he has a long bus ride.

But we had our reasons, which I won't go into here. But I know DS probably won't achieve the same grades he would if he'd attended the grammar school, where he would either have achieved very well, or crumbled, and refused to go to school at all, and I didn't want to take that risk.

The kids I know who get into the grammar school under circumstances like your DS tend to end up being the really high achievers.

concernedaboutheboy · 20/10/2014 19:51

Hmmm. Not sure.

I think an hours'commute each way is too far for a kid.

The grammar may well get good results but it has a selective admissions policy. What do both schools' stats say about how succesful they are at 'closing the gap',number of kids with SEN, number of kids eligible for free school meals etc?

averythinline · 20/10/2014 19:59

an hour isn't that long for secondary school where we are (London) mine was upto 1.5 hrs as 2 buses and dh about an hour- school bus....he can use that time to do homework/read/chat - phone his friends....etc think I would go for grammer first as essexmum says easier to get into comp later ..my mum always regretted not going bit further due to practicalities as lone parent....and why not move somewhere a bit nearer if he gets in as aniither option

boys3 · 20/10/2014 20:46

We're in a GS area with two single sex grammars in the (small) town - although both then offer mixed sixth forms. A number of DCs at both schools (maybe 20-25%) come from "over the boarder". Probably 45min journey on the school buses - so although some travel time, also friends to share it with.

Difficult, but arguably a nice, decision to have to make. As someone else has already said, perhaps opt for the grammar with the comp as the second choice?

admission · 20/10/2014 21:12

I think that you need to stop thinking in terms of grammar = better school. It is a different school with a different way of doing things from the reasonable comprehensive.
Yes the grammar school is going to be more academic but a good comprehensive will still give your son a good education and allow him to get the kind of results that will get him good A levels and a university place. The question for me is whether your son will appreciate the more academic ways that a grammar school gives. Reading your post I think the answer is no. To therefore push him towards the grammar when he could be in a set that is a bottom set and therefore potentially struggling is to my mind not the way forward. Let him go to the comprehensive but keep a tight rein on him to ensure that he does perform, when he should be in top sets for most subjects. Only if he absolutely expresses a real desire to want to go to the grammar school would I push him that way.
Only you know what the situation is locally about school places but if it is an isolated grammar school in a different LA, then the nearer comprehensive might actually be the school of choice locally therefore if you do not put it down as first preference you could loose out on a place there.

faitaccompli · 20/10/2014 22:08

Bearing in mind he achieved qualification without special tuition, there is NO reason to think that he would struggle in the bottom set of a grammar school. I can't see where that is a possiblity. And so what if he is? My son is at the local grammar, loves sport, and plays after school at least three times a week, as well as football most lunch times. He could do more if he wanted to play rugby or do rowing. An hour each way is not outrageous - obviously it would be better if it were a shorter journey, but there are likely to be other children coming from your area if it is in catchment.

I would definitely give it a go if I were you!

iwantgin · 20/10/2014 22:18

Has your DS been to see either of the schools yet? he may take an instant like/dislike to one or the other.

DS is in Y12 now. We live in a town with two reasonable secondary schools- walkable - but DS wanted to go to the grammar in the next town. He passed the 11+ with no extra tutoring. He has had to catch the public bus/es to and from school since Y7 - and has (mostly) managed.

He didn't know anyone when he started. tbh, most of the pupils in Y7 didn't know each other as they have such a widespread uptake.

Anyway - he made the choice that he wanted to go there. He has done excellently in his GCSEs - as expected from the school. He is now at the 6th form there, which also has a good rep for fantastic results.

The only difference between your DS and mine is that his is not a single sex school, and his commute is a bit shorter (but only one bus per hour, so if he misses it it;ll take him an hour to walk it!!)

Put it as first option. You can still change your mind nearer the time if DS doesn't fancy it. But if you don't put it as first, then you have less chance of a place.

RabbitOfNegativeEuphoria · 20/10/2014 22:31

My DD's both go to a superselective over an hour's journey away. It has worked out very well for them (so far, DD1 is in Y12 but Dd2 is only Y7). It sounds as if your DS wanted to go to the grammar. That being the cases and his excellent achievement in passing the exam even though it was a late in the day decision to try, seems to indicate that maybe it is the school for him - but I do understand about the logistics issues as I live with similar issues myself. The girls are fine with the journey and the travel time, they love the bus (all the bus kids do) but it becomes an issue if one of them is sick or has a medical/dental appointment or a music exam - that's a full day off rather than an hour or so. And DD2 was unwell today and DH had to make a 2 hour round trip to bring her home which obviously was not a great result for him. Still, we all believe we made the right choice.

Coolas · 20/10/2014 22:33

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

CocktailQueen · 20/10/2014 22:34

I posted a very similar message earlier re my dd! Similar quandary. Watching with interest.

InfinitySeven · 20/10/2014 22:36

Go for the grammar.

He has shown enormous potential to pass with no training. You only get one shot at secondary school.

He'll get used to the commute.

LegsBenedict · 20/10/2014 22:50

Thank you everyone for your posts. It's good to get some different, objective views, where we're so in the midst of it.

To clarify a few points raised, we are NOT in catchment for the grammar. No other kids from our area that we know go to the school (the geographical cut-off usually ends up being before our area).

We don't want to move. We love it where we live - it really is home - and I'm just about to invest in doing up the house, so have no intention of moving. I don't know if we could afford to either, as living nearer the grammar would be prohibitively expensive.

And the comprehensive DS likes (me too) is not our catchment school either. Our catchment school is a bit worse than average, needs improvement (whatever the Ofsted grade below 'good' is) and Ofsted singled it out for failing more able pupils. We're not entertaining it at all, for a few other reasons too.

The comprehensive we like is a bit further away but usually undersubscribed, because its catchment kids (affluent area) tend to get into the oversubscribed super-performing comprehensives in a nearby city - which is too far away for us. So the comprehensive DS has homed in on is a bit better than middling - better than our catchment school, but not in the league of the best ones in the county. It feels friendly - nice kids. It has a good reputation for SEN support (which is good but doesn't say much for how it would help DS). How do I find the 'value added' scores for each school? The grammar has no Ofsted reports online.

As suggested, I worry that DS would struggle in the grammar. He derives a fair bit of self-esteem from feeling capable at school and I'd hate him to lose that - to 'crumble', as one poster put it. But as other posters have said, he might thrive. It's a gamble. Atia, your son's situation sounds great. But I guess you live nearer to his school? My DS would have to be on the bus at 07:30, then home by 17:00 (if no extra-curricular stuff scheduled). He'd then need to eat and do homework - I wonder where the time is in a school day like that to play Xbox, chill out, see friends, train with his beloved football team. I worry about the work-life balance of it. I realise lots of kids do it, especially in big cities ... but aren't they knackered and frantic all the time? We're used to falling out the door and a five-minute stroll to the village school.

We have visited both schools. We liked both, though probably the comprehensive more for 'feel' and space. We've talked a lot about the pros and cons of each. DS would like to go to the comprehensive, but we'll talk some more over the next week or so before submitting the form. Obviously with my input, and having eliminated crap options, I feel it's largely down to him.

OP posts:
wigglylines · 20/10/2014 22:52

I went to a rigorously academic private secondary school, and changed to a pretty rubbish state secondary at 13. (I didn't get on with the ethos of the private school, although I was academic and I did enjoy the work.)

For me, it was the right thing to leave, but although I'm glad I left, I'm also glad I went to the private school first and had that experience, and solid academic start to my secondary education. I travelled the best part of an hour to both schools, it was fine.

Like other people have said, it'll be much easier to change from the grammar to the secondary if he doesn't like it, than the other way round. Education is something people can't take away from you, I would jump at the chance of giving my child access to an academically rigorous education, if I felt it suited them. (They're only little right now, no idea yet!)

wigglylines · 20/10/2014 22:55

Ah, sorry, cross posts - I see he prefers the comprehensive. I think feeling comfortable with a school's ethos (the children as well as the parents) is very important too.

LegsBenedict · 20/10/2014 22:56

Oh, and last year (typical year), the grammar took no kids on free school meals, even though had there been any, they would have been prioritised above most other applicants.

OP posts:
Coolas · 20/10/2014 23:01

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Lazymama2 · 20/10/2014 23:06

Speak to your son's form teacher/teacher who knows him best as they can give you thier opinion as to what school would suit him best.

Check on the 11+ forum to see if there are coaches/car shares that go to the school.

An hour is a long way to travel for an 11 year old but not if there are other pupils also making the same journey and he wont be 11 for long!

And I know children who are travelling that far to go private at secondary.

Good luck to you son and well done!

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Momagain1 · 20/10/2014 23:08

Getting into the Grammar made my DHs life, it really did.

There may be a bursary from the school that could help with transport costs. but DH was quite proud of being able to manage the transport from his village into town and if he missed the train, he ran. Seriously, across the fields into the next village where he stood a good chance of catching another train coming up from the coast. And if he missed that, all the way to school and straight to headmasters office. His parents were split up and neither had a car, so, from age 11, being there and on time was entirely his lookout, there was no back up plan. Except running.

He ran every day at one point to train as a cross country runner, and was allowed to pocket the bursary, though with the expectation he buy a new uniform as his DM couldnt and his Dad wouldnt. I have seen pictures, it is sad how much too short it was. :(

LegsBenedict · 20/10/2014 23:14

FSM are prioritised at this school as part of their over-subscription criteria.

Coolas, I understand what you mean about friends, but DS's friends are lovely kids, and he's gone all the way through his schooling so far with some of them (including his best friend) - since pre-school. It's not to say there wouldn't be lovely kids at the grammar, but it kind of feels like ditching old friends. (Sorry, bit sentimental!)

As for his work ethic, I think he gives work 100% in school - never any issues with his effort there. But I think he equates home with down-time. He's become a better self-starter with homework, but still needs nagging reminding fairly regularly. He generally does it last-minute. He'd rather do his own thing. I think he'll really resent homework taking over what bit of time he's got left at the the end of the day, and I don't think feeling tired and resentful is conducive to a good, happy education.

I went to a state primary and then a private school (Forces-subsidised) for secondary - and did really well. I therefore have no first-hand experience of what we're comparing here!

OP posts:
Coolas · 20/10/2014 23:19

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