Private school bursaries - am I missing something?

[SecretPlansAndCleverTricks]

A couple of the families from DDs reception class have older children at a private school 30 mins away on hefty bursaries - they pay very little due to a low income. In conversation with other mums, many of them are confidently planning to send their children privately 'depending on how big a bursary we get'.

These are families who on low incomes, supported mainly by tax credits (usually because one parent chooses to SAH). But they all see private education as very much within their reach, whereas DH and I could only dream of sending the DCs privately - we both work, and are (just) over the TC threshold.

Am I missing something? Is private school something you apply for with the TCs? I don't want to sound like a benefits basher - but it just seems wrong that private ed is easy for the very rich, and the very poor, but not in between?

[difficultpickle]

One thing that does surprise me on MN is the number of people who get their dcs to take entrance exams and then wonder how they are going to afford the place. I think it is particularly cruel to put your dcs through taking exams and encouraging them to think about moving schools when you haven't actually investigatesd the cost of doing so.

[Accuracyrequired]

You could give up one of the jobs and have a try?

[middleclassonbursary]

bisjo the problem is that many schools won't consider a bursary application until your DC has been offered a place I agree with you that this is very unfair and upsetting for a child if in the worse case scenario no bursary money is forth coming. We learnt the hard way we particularly liked a school a well known boarding school for DS 1 their website talked about its enormous committment to bursaries how lack of money should not put you off applying the usual stuff very upbeat quoting lots of examples although it's toned it right down since. My DS 1 went to see the school met the head/HM director of studies was offered a place but our bursary application was turned down flat he got over it but iI did write a letter complaining that their website was thoroughly misleading as i said it was altered not long after that and they are no longer promising generous bursaries! With DS 2 we were lucky his school is a very well known boarding school he started at the school in yr 9, was offered a place in yr 6 but we were invited to apply for a bursary to get an indication of what might be offered and thus whether or not it was doable before even registering him in yr 4/5. Sadly most schools aren't this helpful.
I would advise anyone hoping for a bursary to speak to the bursar before doing too much preferably before even looking at the school with your DC detail your situation and gauge the reaction no bursar going to give you a definite offer but if say your looking for a 75% reduction you need to know if they have ever given out such large bursaries before or whether they never offer out this kind of reduction.

[difficultpickle]

That's really difficult. I wonder if some schools boast about bursaries to show they are complying with their charitable requirements but in reality see what they can get away with. Ds will be on a 50% scholarship which obviously isn't means tested but does require him to ensure he maintains high standards in what he was awarded the scholarship for.

[Accuracyrequired]

Why boasting - if they have to do it they have to do it - if they don't tell people aout ursaries available how will anyone know, so how is that boasting.
(unlike your mini stealth boast there!)

[lisad123]

Rules for bursary are the same, they have to have good attendance, and behaviour. It is reviewed every year.

[difficultpickle]

What I mean if the school has charitable status then they have to justify that to the world at large. They do that by boasting on their website but then in reality the bursaries awarded are few and far between.

I think I need to boast a bit more in RL. When ds left his current school at the end of term lots of parents in our year didn't know he was leaving. I thought he'd told all of his year but obviously they hadn't bothered to tell their parents. It wasn't something I'd mentioned to other mums as there isn't an easy way of saying it without sounding boastful. I am very proud though

From what I understand ds has to do a test at the end of his first year on what he has learned. Not sure if it is every year after that or if then it is just down to behaviour etc.

[middleclassonbursary]

Also meant to say read websites very carefully one well known boarding school has a video about the three boys it has offered bursaries too, another states it is unable to offer more than 30%, and third says it only offers 2-3 a year. In these recessionary days boarding schools I think are less generous than they were 3-4 years ago when they were significantly more up beat. With regard to assets these are I believe the biggest reason bursaries are turned down, saving investments and second houses will have to be utilised first before you will be considered. We know of one school which would expect you to sell a large house to either free up capitol or reduce mortgage payments. I think bursars expect to see that you are prepared to make significant sacrifices. Many on mums net talk about a £40 000 PA cut off for salaries. This obviously does not apply to boarding schools with fees coming in at £32 000 you need to be on a significant income to be able to afford it.
OP the parents you talk too assuming they're going to get a bursary need to be careful more are applying, and in many cases the pot is becoming smaller nothing is guaranteed.
That's really difficult. I wonder if some schools boast about bursaries to show they are complying with their charitable requirements but in reality see what they can get away with.
I believe many schools have been forced into a position of offering bursaries when in reality they just don't have the money. Lets give them the benefit of the doubt and assume that they genuinely wish to offer bursaries the problem is that they have so many other expenses, staff wages are increasing, parents expect so much more; they want facilities boarding houses etc to the same level as a hotel, games facilities to be only one step down from an Olympic stadium, their insurance premium are not doubt are rising, many parents for expect games coaches to be experts in their fields rather than an an enthusiastic teacher, they want their DC not only to get stunning results but also win matches as well! The costs of running a school are I'm sure are increasing enormously. From a parents point of view fees for boarding are enormous and thus expectations will be high. So yes I suspect many are complying with their charitable requirements and in reality seeing what they can get away with. Most boarding schools, apart from a few notable exceptions, attach bursaries to scholarships so its sadly just scholarship by another name. There are many non scholars who would benefit from this type of education and given a chance would really shine also many scholars have been carefully prepared by their prep schools and bursaries at prep schools are generally harder to find.

[ethelb]

Surely this is a problem with any income cut off though?

Homes with SAHP always come of better in these scenarios despite the salaries of two WAHP being largely spent on child care.

It's not fair but what can you do?

[middleclassonbursary]

I think most schools would expect SAH mums to try and get a job once children are beyond certain age unless there was a significant reason not too. Obviously jobs that fit in with school hours are not easy to find. Few employers will give you 19 weeks holiday a year!

[teachermother]

Welcome to England! Have you not realised yet that the harder you work, the harder they punish you? I work full time (weekends as any other teacher included) but I can barely afford one extra curricular activity for my two children. My next door single mum neighbour glows in her year long tan, she cannot work of course but has a concession membership in the gym, and what kills me of envy is that her children go to endless courses. The eldest child is applying for an independent school. Something is not right...

[middleclassonbursary]

teachermother we have a good income in excess of £85 000 PA but have qualified for a substantial bursary from a very well known highly regarded boarding school so there is hope.

[TangoSierra]

middleclass - I am surprised at that. I thought income etc had to be pretty much less than 40 to get a chance of a bursary.

[difficultpickle]

middleclass that's good to know. Is your bursary connected to a scholarship (if you don't mind me asking)?

[middleclassonbursary]

No as I've frequently said on MN you do not have to be on an income of less than £40 000 to get a bursary to a boarding school because to comfortably pay the fees you need to be on an income of £120 000 +. £32 000 the cost of the current fees is in excess of £2500 a month. Im sorry Tango Im not really getting at you I just get tired of all the rubbish thats posted about bursaries from people who haven't got one!
Bisjo my sons bursary is not connected to a scholarship but his school is super selective and we could of got a scholarship and thus a bursary into a slightly less selective school and I suppose the school knows that.
My DS had been on a bursary since boarding prep when bursaries were not really talked/known about although we had a substantially lower income at the time as the head said "if you don't ask you wont get!"
The currant school is generous with its bursaries and has quite a few joining it in yr 9 from comprehensive schools many again on bursaries.

[stealthsquiggle]

While we are on urban myths - the SAHP thing doesn't compute either - if one parent is not working, they want to know why, and what their earning potential would be if they did go back to work, as well as what assets you have, all your outgoings, etc, etc. The "standard" (in as much as there is a standard) bursary application form is possibly the most intrusive form you will ever encounter.

[TangoSierra]

Yes, I can see the reasoning middleclass. I know we would not be able to afford our ds's fees on 85k income either. We have not applied for bursaries, we wsouln't get one. And also at the school the boys are at, they have to keep a certain standard of work in all subjects and bursaries and scholarships are removed overnight if not meeting the target over the year. I couldn't bear the stress, on us, and the boys.

[bisjolympics]

middle class would you mind if I PM'd you to ask which school? I'm interested as I've been a bit put off considering a super selective boarding school for ds as I assumed the only way I could afford it would be if he got a scholarship.

[middleclassonbursary]

I've PMd you.

[Bursarytime]

Bursaries are a priority for many independent schools with many schools increasingly employing specialist fundraisers who have a remit to raise money for bursaries. There is rarely money floating around a school bank account to offer bursaries to everyone who requests ones.

The best indication of whether the school has a substantial bursary fund other than asking them is to look at their website and to see if they have a development office or a foundation. If so, it is likely that they take fundraising seriously. Most of the well known boarding schools have well established fundraising offices and put considerable money into bursaries. Other schools, particularly in grammar areas have targets of up to 30% of children receiving some kind if bursary. This is fundamental to them attracting children who would otherwise have gone to grammar schools. Many day schools which were formally grammar schools will often have a number of bursaries which are donated by ex pupils who were typically bright less advantaged children who were given an opportunity of a grammar education and then went on to make a lot of money and want to give the same opportunity to other children. It is not unusual for conditions to be placed on these and the school will go out to disadvantaged schools and encourage children from there to apply.

Girls day schools are least likely to have a significant bursary fund as there is less of a history of giving in girls schools, possibly because it is only recently that significant number of women have had the kind of careers that would allow them to make such donations.

[middleclassonbursary]

My DH's old school has a very active fund raising organisation; current parents who seem to work tirelessly to raise money including a monthly raffle where you pay I think £100 pcm but get entered into a raffle with the chance of winning £500 or something similar.
My DS's current school does not actively advertise its fund raising on its website but the opening paragraph of the admissions section states "It remains our ambition, consistent with our Foundation charter and charitable purpose, to broaden our intake to include pupils less able to afford our fees." We also receive a yearly publication detailing how many are currently receiving bursaries as well as being asked to contribute towards the fund and at various social functions the ambitious plans to increase bursaries are frequently mentioned by the head or the chairman of the governors. Don't get me wrong I don't think they've managed to move over to 100% bursaries for all but the governors are working really hard to broaden access.
These bursaries are not attached to scholarships yes they are reviewed yearly and are obviously dependent on your DS behaviour but we have not found this an issue my DS is performing better than we ever expected currently in the top 20% of his year of his very selective school and doing so much more than other not on bursaries maybe its because he knows how lucky he is. The forms are fairly intrusive but so they should be I think it took us about an half an hour to fill it in but they we don't have anything to declare (literally). Its easy if you can write no to everything, the most tedious thing for us was working out our assets; is it £6000 if we include the fridge and the cars or £6200 and finding and photocopying our tenancy agreement!

[bursarymum]

OP, you do sound like you think people who rely on tax credits aren't 'good enough' or worthy of a place for their child in a private school. However, I do sympathise with the squeezed middle problem that affects a lot of people - the same thing occurs with, for example access to help (or lack of) from a solicitor.

Surely the fact that private schools offer bursaries to those who really cannot afford it is a good thing because it makes the concept of private school less elitist.

My dd is on a considerable bursary at a prep school. The head of this school told me that 'loads of children receive bursaries here, there is no stigma'. Although we are not allowed to tell anyone if we are in receipt of a bursary or it can be withdrawn, hense the name change.

[BooksandBrunch]

What would be plan B? To remove bursaries altogether? My ds will be going to a top comp, so my comments are not biased in anyway.

I know many a single mum without a fake tan in sight and the pennies to afford excessive extra curricular activities, with bright kids who wouldn't otherwise be able to afford a private education. In fact, all the dc I know on bursaries are kids from single parent families. These prejudices really have to stop. I know of only one married couple on them and the wife works on her husbands business which is having a rather difficult time. And even if, it was the case that morally, they shouldn't be receiving bursaries for their kids, for the many kids from single parent families who benefit, a disadvantaged group that statistically do terribly in the education stakes, then surely bursaries are a great thing. Education is the primary route to closing the gap between rich and poor and hearing you MC lot winging about it, just makes me cross. Bursaries ask you everything barring the size of your underwear, so any money that is given, rest assured, you must need it. There may well be, the odd one who falls though the net, as in those who could ordinarily afford it, but I doubt if there are many. There is also the Whitgift foundation which covers bursaries for three of their schools and with a cut of point of earnings up to £85,000, over a third of their kids are on bursaries.

[Shagmundfreud]

"Bursaries ask you everything barring the size of your underwear, so any money that is given, rest assured, you must need it."

It's driving me mad - I need to find out how SIL has got a bursary for a school which gives her more than 2/3's off her ds's school fees, but she is somehow managing to pay full fees for another child at a different private school, and has another child starting on full fees at the same school this September. The child on the bursary has been at his private school for 5 years, whereas the one paying full fees at a different school has only been going since last year. In other words, their household income is low enough to secure a generous bursary from one school, but sufficient to fund to full sets of school fees at another. Nobody in the family will ask, for fear of finding out she's been cooking the books in some way.

I really want ds2 to go private for secondary - he'll not last 10 minutes in the state schools in my area. DH and I have a household income of about 75K, but feel skint because of the size of our mortgage, and the cost of music lessons for ds. We'll also be losing our c/b next year. We shouldn't be struggling on that income but at the moment we're having to be quite careful. There is NO WAY we could pay full fees. We struggle to cover an hours maths tutoring and a piano lesson each week for our dc's.

[perceptionreality]

Maybe someone else in your SIL's family is paying the full fees for the other children?