Private school bursaries - am I missing something?

[SecretPlansAndCleverTricks]

A couple of the families from DDs reception class have older children at a private school 30 mins away on hefty bursaries - they pay very little due to a low income. In conversation with other mums, many of them are confidently planning to send their children privately 'depending on how big a bursary we get'.

These are families who on low incomes, supported mainly by tax credits (usually because one parent chooses to SAH). But they all see private education as very much within their reach, whereas DH and I could only dream of sending the DCs privately - we both work, and are (just) over the TC threshold.

Am I missing something? Is private school something you apply for with the TCs? I don't want to sound like a benefits basher - but it just seems wrong that private ed is easy for the very rich, and the very poor, but not in between?

[sausagesandwich34]

he's not self employed and is on a pretty low income

I don't know what it is to the penny but have provided the school with an estimate -ball's in their court now

[diamondsinthesand]

Thats really difficult for you, Sausages. Have been in that place and it so quickly becomes a power/control issue and nothing to do with the main reason it all began (just getting the best for your DD). You may just have to be really open about it with the school and trust them or, if he has his own company, look it up at Companies House - all info is public. Or maybe the school could actually make direct contact.

[sausagesandwich34]

the biggest problem I have with the bursary system is that they don't understand that in single parent families, the non resident parent might not be willing to share their financial info

I'm having a battle at the moment as dd's dad won't give the info because he thinks I will use it to chase for child support

the reality is it would put dd in a stronger position for a bursary idiot

he doesn't have parental resonibility for her but the school still want the info

[diamondsinthesand]

Reading this seems to suggest that one of the problems is that so many 'professional parents' are now on really low incomes - they are the 'new poor' albeit highly educated.

It takes time for a society to catch up with this and many bursary commissioner are older in age and still associating traditional 'poverty' (ie single parents, ethnic minority kids, empty-looking homes, meek downcast demeanor) as being 'poor' while the articulate and feisty professional parents are simply not seen as being in real need of help.

Schools should get to the truth but I really wonder if many of the current Bursary Committees are really qualified to do that, or are they 'behind the times' with their criteria?
I actually think they need to get up to speed with what life's really like for the children of professional/ low-income working two parent families now compared to a few years ago and in contrast to the traditionally 'poor' families - ie single parents and mothers in head shawls.

So for a bursary visit - your books and paintings may speak against you more than your income speaks for you, even if that's pitifully small and much less than successful applicants. They want to feel they are doing some 'good', bestowing 'gifts on the poor' etc. They are not necessarily batting for the school or your child.
That's my opinion and could be completely wrong, though

[Viperidae]

I think it is like everything else in life, we would all like to see real fairness but that is very hard to administer especially when, as someone said upthread, there are large sums of money involved and there are always some people prepared to bend the rules for their own advantage, just as some do with the benefit system. This (or unjust whispers of this) then causes others who struggle to feel resentful.

We have seen this all ways round from children of divorced relatively wealthy families getting school assistance and EMA as they lived with a non-working parent (very generously provided for though) to a uni situation of one family where both parents were low earners but, when mother remarried, all duaghter's extras were withdrawn as new DH was more comfortable yet he refused to pay anything for her as he had already paid for his own DCs

One family we knew went so far as to go into the school and claim that times were so hard for father's business that they needed bursaries for their 3 children but did not think it relevant to mention that they owned outright several rental properties in addition to their own home. After it was refused the mother told others in the playground with the comment that it was worth a try!

[BooksandBrunch]

A bit harsh YoureFired. Check out the Whitgift Foundation where something like 50% of their kids are on bursaries in all three of their schools, which is well over the amount needed to fulfil their charitable status. I also 'personally' know of a number of underprivileged, but smart kids who go there. They live by their ethos in providing a first class education for those who are less well off.

Sounds to me like there are a whole load of people on here who are simply happy with the status quo of, the rich getting richer and the poor getting poorer. And it is far easier of course, to focus on the negative as opposed to the positives that having bursaries bring.

Moaning minnies.

[kerrygrey]

Under the now defunct Assisted Places scheme the income of a single parent's live-in partner or new spouse was included in the calculation of a bursary. This was a government scheme and applied the same rules as for other state benefits.

As has been said, a school paying for the bursary can do whatever they please, though many DO use the Assisted Places criteria.

[Yourefired]

Yes there are many "comfortable" people who have gotten bursaries. They play by the rules but play the system. Do you really think that private schools want the great unwashed. They are businesses who are fulfilling their buresry requirements in order to maintain their charitable status thereby avoiding vat. Sorry this sounds horribly harsh, but IME true.

[BooksandBrunch]

So let me see if I have this right. God forbid, you spilt with your partner/husband. Your own dc are state educated and you start dating a man who had, prior to meeting him, already chosen for his dc to be privately educated. Does the cost of his own dc education automatically become your problem, whilst your own kids are in a state school?

Benefits cheating is not a comparable situation whatsoever. That is against the law! This is about how a biological parent chooses to educate their dc and whether the responsibility of cost lies with, not even her new husband, but the boyfriend she may well just be shacking up with! There was also the issue of the child going to the assumed boyfriends house in Italy (no one of course has seen any deeds to verify this). With all due respect, that child may hate going to the dreaded boyfriends house, hate the boyfriend and fight with him everyday. And busy bodies who take their merry time 'assuming' what a persons situation is and based on their view of what is an acceptable standard of living for a bursary child are off running to the bursars office with unsupported information. I just think your time would be better spent working in a local charity shop and trusting that all necessary checks (of which there are many) are being conducted by the school.

I can just imagine the playground gossip of, 'oh she does this and he has this and they do that for a living. Ooooh, if that's the case, how can they afford to do that?' Right then, let's go tell the bursar. When the reality is, you know absolutely nothing!

[bevelino]

I think bursaries are a fantastic idea and our family were happy to give up the automatic financial award of dd's scholarship when asked by the school, which enabled the award to be applied to the school bursary fund.

The issue of bursaries seems to provoke a fair amount of concern amongst some parents and seems to be due to the basis upon which bursaries are awarded generally. This is because while a criteria is often set down in the school brochure, any school will retain the discretion of how they are awarded, which may vary from year to year depending on the number of eligible applicants and the level of the fund.

[pianomama]

OP - I agree families with 2 x middleclass earnings are in the worst position where school fees are concerned.
However it is not impossible to get a scholarship/bursary in these circumstances. In my experience , schools will support DC financially if they see DC as an asset - academically/sport/musically etc.

It is absolutely up to the school to decide which DC they want to finance - reporting "bursary abuse" is just ridiculous.

[mumzy]

Agree with Edith I think if you have strong reasons to suspect the bursary scheme is being abused you should inform the school of your suspicions then trust the school to take the appropriate action.

[EdithWeston]

It is up to each school, surely, to decide its bursary T&Cs (including how it handles new circumstances of divorced parents).

Then it's up to parents to decide if the school is right for them, based on the total of its characteristics and ethos. If the conduct of the bursary policy is a major factor in shunning a school, for heaven's sake make sure you tell them so. The schools are, generally, very responsive to parental pressure.

The snag comes when version A of events is widely believed, but the school knows and has verified version B, but cannot describe this publicly (strong confidentiality around information from the family about finances) other than give a general statement. If people do not believe that, and do not trust the school to be running a fair system, then they perhaps should not trust that one with their children.

[mumzy]

considering the amount of money involved ~ £50,000 that a 50% bursary can save parents over 7 yrs at secondary school it's no wonder that parents are keen to see they should only go to those who genuinely need it. If you are very well off you may think its not worth being bothered about who gets bursaries but if you are 2 full time working parents scrimping and saving to put together school fees making do with 10 year old clap out car, buying secondhand uniforms it is galling to know some people are abusing the bursary scheme

[Viperidae]

I can see the argument that the boyfriend's earnings maybe should not be counted into the equation for the mother's child's school fees but, if it is a long term cohabiting relationship, then that couple are at an advantage over married couples. I don't know how any system can be truly fair.

kerry I also agree that the reporting, etc is not the nicest of things but I have never ceased to be amazed at the behaviour of some parents over bursaries and scholarships both in terms of lying and manipulation to get them and reporting others. Watching the bitching at some private schools is a sport

[mumzy]

I think if I were paying school fees some of which was being used to support bursaries I'd report parents who I thought was abusing the scheme, I think it's no different to reporting benefit cheats, then it would be up to the school to investigate.

[kerrygrey]

I do agree that it's spiteful and vindictive of other parents to 'report' to the school on what they imagine must be the situation, when they can't possibly know.

[BooksandBrunch]

Just to add that for me, even if the boyfriends earnings weren't taken into consideration, I wouldn't be bothered. I suspect, there're very few boyfriends who are remotely bothered about their girlfriends, kid's, 'education'. The education of the child is her choice. I can't for a second imagine there are many boyfriends, except the odd extremely lovely one, that would insist on their girlfriends child be educated privately whilst she insisted on state.

I don't think it's comparable to general living expenses where his income does indeed make a difference to the lifestyle of the household. This is about the child's education. Her child.

[BooksandBrunch]

The school may well indeed be taking into consideration the boyfriend's earning's. Who knows what is written on their application form. Who knows whether the boyfriend is on the brink of bankruptcy, property owned by grandparents, no equity, struggling to sell it. My mother always taught me to never to look at another family lifestyle and wish to have what you believe they have, because you never, ever know the reality of their situation. Some people have great PR and many on the brink of loosing it all. From my understanding also it's the equity in property or properties that is taken into consideration for bursaries. I'm sure they all differ.

The issue wasn't about them living off the state. The Mother may well be working. The aspect that peeves me off is the animosity to the bursary child, who on the surface appears not impoverished enough to warrant a bursary; so much so, to be reporting it to the school. Such busy bodies. I think an awful lot more information is required before making such judgements and the only information I can see that has been acquired is that she goes on holiday to Italy and they're not driving a banger, therefore let me have a word with the bursar.

[kerrygrey]

Yet Income Support, Unemployment Benefits etc take the cohabitees finances into consideration, including any allowances for children who may not be the children of the wage earner. Seems the government consider that in such a case if A lives with B he/she takes financial responsibility for B's children.

[BooksandBrunch]

Even so, he is not the child's father is the point I'm making and therefore has no legal responsibilities to the child whatsoever. For crying out loud, they may not even like each other as is often the case in these scenarios. Equally, if they were to break up, which for the record relationships do, frequently, he'd have absolutely zero rights to see the child nor would he legally have to support her. Cohabiting or not, it his not his kid.

The reason perhaps all the moans of the haters and busy bodies who resented the bursary child going on holiday to her mothers boyfriends house in Italy, fell on deaf ears, is likely because the seriousness of the relationship would be impossible to measure. The biological father's income/maintenance is what is taking into consideration and not the mothers live in lover, which would be quite absurd.

[EdithWeston]

I think the key point in Viperidae's post was that they couple were reported to be cohabiting

There is nothing to stop a school verifying financial information and many do. I agree it is somewhere below shoddy to give charitable grants (which is what a bursary boil down to) unless you have made proper checks. There should also be a clear policy about how incomes of divorced/separated parents are considered (including income/assets of new partners). That cohabitation can make an income to grants, bursaries, benefits etc is hardly new, and is presumably a factor in major family decision making.

[BooksandBrunch]

Sorry, was meant to say, if after a break up they get back together, then are you suggesting the bursary should then be taken away again. Oh and impoverish. It's late, lol)

[BooksandBrunch]

But if the partner is not the child's father what exactly is the issue? I'm assuming when you say partner, you mean the mothers boyfriend? And when or if he decides to up sticks and go, then what, bursary gets re-instated? Then they get back together - should the bursary then b reinstated. So to make you happy, a criteria of the bursary should be, single mother's only allowed to date poor boyfriends? Then you may as well add to the list, any friends who have houses abroad, bursary kids should not be allowed to visit; must live as poverish life as possible. As I see it, the child is not his kid. Her Father's contribution and salary, rightly so, is what will be taken into consideration.

[joanofarchitrave]

Abused? Surely a bursary system is not about fairness, it's about the school getting the pupils they want feel will fit the school best, ameliorating the effect of charging fees?