3 science's at GCSE - D of Ed guidance?

[dreamingofsun]

Hi

my son is about to choose his GCSE's and is keen to do 3 separate sciences, rather than the combined science course. However, the school only allows a limited number of children do this (I think this is because they don't have enough places or teachers).

Are there any regulations that i can quote them to encourage them to accept my son? I seem to remember reading somewhere that a school has to provide language GCSEs if a child wants them and was wondering if there's anything similar for science

[circular]

DD1 14 (yr10) went for the triple, and so far is the best choice she could have made. She is NOT a straight A student, school steers all of top sets into triple when chosing options, but they do get the option to move down a pathway and take double. They also insist on at least level 6a in Maths & Science as well as 5a in English.

Pros are - Specialist teachers, separate grades for each subject (she ended yr 9 working at a B overall, is currently working at A*/A for Physics, A for Chemistry and B/C for Biology), an extra academic GCSE.

The only con we can think of is loss of another option choice. Alhough for her, that would have been drama or catering. She has managed to include Ebacc subjects (Geography & French) but not a technology as Music was not negotiable.

So can be a good choice if reasonble at science, and struggling to find other academic options to suit. And if there is a significant in-balance between expected grades in the three sciences.

[gelatinous]

dreamingofsun it could be staff, or possibly laboratory availability (although you would think they could timetable some science lessons in ordinary classrooms they don't always like to do this) or even just an arbitrary limit.

Good luck with your battle - wanting to do sciences is one of the best reasons for doing them in my opinion. He's far more likely to succeed at a subject he enjoys and has chosen than another that he doesn't enjoy and has been told he has to do instead. Do you definitely know the school only want him to take double or are you guessing that at the moment? Let us know how you get on.

[dreamingofsun]

gelatinous - i'm guessing. i will know on thurs. i'm told they only have 90 slots for 16 classes of children - so i imagine they are going to be rationing them. my son narrowly missed going to the grammar and is in top maths set, but unfortunately had 6-8 science teachers last year - we lost track in the end - so is in middle set now as i imagine he didn't get especially good exam results and got 5a in his teacher assessment at year 8.

the other alternative is to encourage him to consider history or psychology which would widen his options. its such a hard choice. agree with you....he's got to want to do the subjects

[Quattrocento]

My DCs aren't allowed to do anything other than triple science. Better preparation for A level (if they want to do science a levels, that is).

Can you establish why they only allow only a few to do triple science? Can your DS get into the select few by working really hard this year?

[bluesky]

my ds spent year 10 doing core science (all 3 taught separately by different science teachers) and is now doing additional science in year 11, taught in the same way. He will then have 2 GCSEs.

He has the ability to do the triple, but hasn't ever really enjoyed science, and isn't going in a science direction for his a levels, so he was advised to stick to doing it this way.

[dreamingofsun]

quattro - form has to be in by march so not really enough time. at my oldest son's they all had to do triple science, but unfortunately youngest very narrowly missed getting grades for there.

to be honest i hate this school. my middle son is also there and has done very badly. if i trusted the teachers it would help - but i don't overall.

[cristo]

Woohoo, thank you Roisin, that's so helpful.

[dreamingofsun]

gelatinous - you asked for feedback on how we got on. Basically they only have a limited number of places for triple science as they can't fit any further places into the curriculum (please dont ask me to explain this - at my other son's school they all have to do 3 sciences and they manage to teach it to 150 kids). so it depends how many other kids want to do it. i wish i had known this when we chose the school as it would have made me consider the other option more closely.

are you in education? the french teacher said that they had to have a modern language gcse to go to uni. this is news to me and i can't spot any courses that stipulate this on the uni websites. is this correct?

[gelatinous]

dreamingofsun a very long time ago you needed a modern foreign language to go to Oxford or Cambridge which meant that many selective schools insisted on students taking one and many other schools did too for their upper sets. Both universities abolished that requirement eons ago and there followed a gradual decline in language take up at GCSE with many children/schools preferring to take/offer perceived easier subjects. Just recently there has been a swing back towards languages with the government including a language in the ebacc and UCL requiring a modern language GCSE for entry to all their degree courses details here. It's not a hard requirement in that you can take a language course when there instead, but they quite probably will favour applicats who do have a language unless there are good plausible reasons for not taking one (eg school doesn't offer it). As far as I know UCL is the only university with this requirementat the moment, so your french teacher isn't entirely right, but there is some suspicion that more universities may follow suit and require ebacc as an entry requirement in the future, but my opinion is that if they were to do this they would be morally obliged to give at least 4 years notice so that children choosing GCSEs knew what they might be closing the door to at the time of making their choices. It still might be safer to take a language though in my opinion - they are not as difficult as they used to be.

I hope your ds gets his science choice - did the school say how over subscribed it usually is and how they make the choices if it is? I can't help thinking if you keep persistantly asking them awkward questions like this and pointing out that the disrupted science education they've given him so far has disadvantaged him in the selection criteria (if it has) that your ds will be more likely to be chosen for the triple option than if you just wait and see.

I'm not in education, although I have been a science teacher in the past. I'm just interested in how these things work.

[dreamingofsun]

gelatinous - thanks for feedback - your 4 years notice comments seem sensible. not too concerned about ucl and top rung unis..i think he will be going to the rung under that. i can't help but think its better to have an A/B in history than a D in french...but i'll see what the other french teacher says.

ref science - last year they had correct number of applicants. if oversubscribed they choose the ones with the highest grades - he's 1 point off what he needs. 'disrupted science previous year was irrelevant and they couldn't be seen to be treating him any differently or all kids at his school would ask for the same treatment' was their comment. its based on performance now and results of tests - my argument here is that he's in middle set as result of previous year and hence he's working at middle set standards. so we'll see. if they said to me he wasn't good enough i'd be less frustrated and get him to do something else - but that doesn't seem to be the case and he was forecast a 'c' last year even with the appalling teaching.

[MigratingCoconuts]

As a science teacher I would say:

1. No, students with a level 6 do not have to be offered triple science.
   

1. Yes, school's do this differently. Some offer triple as an extra option choice (thus reducing the range of GCSE's you can take). some take it as part of the same alloted time as the double and have to work faster through it.
   

1. No, doing the double award does not limit your choices at A level. I have not noticed any disadvantage. Its the quality of the grade you get that counts and not the number of GCSEs you have.

[dreamingofsun]

migrating - his teachers said it did limit you a bit in 1 of the 3 sciences when i asked and a gov report i was reading - link towards top of these also says that. its extra lessons - so logically if you are doing more of something you usually get better at it surely?

thanks for your first point. was thinking this might be the case, but good to have it confirmed.

think that choosing GCSE's might be an art rather than a science!!

[MigratingCoconuts]

In my experience it doesn't.

When the A level courses were written the vast majority of schools didn't offer triple because of timetable constraints. Those that did tended to try to teach it in the same time frame for a double. This produced a large number of students with a very fleeting, shallow understanding of the concepts covered.
Whereas those that did the double had a more in depth understanding of fewer science concepts.

Looking at the A2 scores two years later, you really couldn't tell who had done double and who had done triple.


More schools get round the problem by offering triple as an option but I still don't think it makes any difference as to how easy or hard students find the A level.

[dreamingofsun]

migrating - thats interesting. so if all fails and he can't do triple, he should still be ok to do science at 'a' level. thankyou

[paranoidparent]

I'm gutted. D/S has achieved (at KS3 summer 2012) a 7A in Science, 8B in Maths, and in English 6B overall (7C for comprehension 6B for writing and 6C for speaking and listening). The school (a state school with a good reputation) has decided he is "borderline" to be accepted for triple science because of his English score. They seem to think he might not have the English skills needed for the science exam papers? What does Shakespeare, poetry, descriptive prose, alliteration etc.etc. have to do with it? Scientific language and report writing is specific, where brevity is always an advantage. What is going on?

[mummytime]

Okay. At my DCs school you do triple or double in the same amount of lesson time. So only the top sets are offered triple, and anyone can choose to drop down to double (slightly slower pace and slightly less homework). DD is in a bright year so 3 tops sets (each side of the school) will start it, probably depends on how many opt out. They will also encourage those struggling to drop down to double.
More people do A'level Biology for example from Double Science than triple.

You can't do Core and Additional and stand alone Biology at the same exam sitting, because their is too much overlap. This will still be the case without modules, it will be a prescribed exam combination. Even if you do them at separate sittings most colleges, employers etc. would only count it as 2 GCSEs at most.

As for A'level it does also depend on which A'levels he wants to do. I would ask for a copy of the sixth form prospectus to check. For Physics at DCs school you need B at GCSE (Core and additional) but also B in Maths.

[Kez100]

We were told that, generally, children get lower grades for triple than they do double. So, if he is predicted C in double, maybe they think he will struggle to get a decent grade in Triple.

Do think about WHY he wants to do triple. Makes sure it isn't just that it sounds better. Make sure there is good reason and that he is happy to (probably) dedicate 7.5 curriculum hours a week to science and give up an option block.

[Kez100]

Re English - Science papers are now including extended answers - up to 6 marks per question, in some cases. The Science papers are changing considerably and I don't think the schools are being given enough information. They will want to protect children from starting a. Course which, later, it proves they are finding tough to secure decent grades in. I think most schools are expecting Science results to drop and not because of teaching but because the exam boards have said they will be tougher to pass. The Government are demanding it.

[TheFallenMadonna]

What MigratingCoconuts said...

We accept students from Triple and Core and Additional onto A level courses, and they are equally well prepared really. But we are geared up for it.

When we are setting, we need to have a multiple of a class size for each of the different pathways (we do Triple, Core and Additional, BTEC and Entry Level Certificate).

[GetDownNesbitt]

I must be overtired, as ac spent ages wondering what the Duke of Edinburgh had to do with Science options...

[BackforGood]

MrsDTK My ds has just finished his GCSEs. In his school they did what I think your school are talking about. You have the same amount of Science timetables if you do BTEC, double or triple. The more able children can get the 3 sep subjects in the time it takes the more steady to do the double. It doesn't take up one of their 'options' so they can still do other things they want to do. However they do move along at a faster pace, obviously, so the pupils have to have demonstrated they are capable/ willing to do this, so it's not something you can 'opt' in to if you haven't been getting good grades in the previous year.

[NoComet]

I hate this system, DD1 is a natural at science, but not in the top set, set (2) and L6 (no sub levels reported)

She wants to study science at university and is really worried she'll miss the triple science set by about one place.


Hopefully they will tell us by the end of term, but the whole thing is about as clear as mud.

Dyslexic and a massive cock up over her maths ability so she started in set 3.
She has just got level 7 for maths.

I'm am not being PFB when I say she can cope with triple science. She has two adult exam passes in scientific hobbies to her name. In one she got a better mark than both the much older candidates and even got 1 mark more than her Dad (DH is idiotically clever and she is very smug about this).

[GrimmaTheNome]

paranoid, star - that's so wrong. Someone who is good at science and maths but weaker at English or dyslexic should arguably be encouraged to do triple science as they're likely to do better with that than the other options (MFL, humanities). I've a friend who was severely dyslexic - he really struggled to write coherent English so his PhD thesis and writing scientific papers was extremely difficult for him but he was a bloody genius at what he did. I think he'd scraped an O-level English, and could no more have done an MFL than fly so (in the bad old days) oxbridge lost out on a brilliant scientist. (he's a researcher in a cambridge institute now so last laugh to him).

Just looking prescriptively at levels doesn't do these children justice.

[NoComet]

I've talked to her teacher, she will not tell me. The groups are not finalised, but they say the new exams have lots of writing.

I hope it will all get sorted out, but having to wait is upsetting DD1, who is usually pretty laid back.

I'm mildly dyslexic and have a postgrad science degree. I'd have got a D- for French.

[mummytime]

I would have been furious if my DS (may have scraped his English GCSE, we'll see in August) had not been allowed to do Triple Science, they were his best chance for 3 GCSEs (probably A, A* and B) along with Maths. He has had the use of a computer for his exams which has helped, but there are plenty of gifted scientists who struggle with English.