3 science's at GCSE - D of Ed guidance?

[dreamingofsun]

Hi

my son is about to choose his GCSE's and is keen to do 3 separate sciences, rather than the combined science course. However, the school only allows a limited number of children do this (I think this is because they don't have enough places or teachers).

Are there any regulations that i can quote them to encourage them to accept my son? I seem to remember reading somewhere that a school has to provide language GCSEs if a child wants them and was wondering if there's anything similar for science

[GrimmaTheNome]

4.50 When young people compete for jobs and enter the workplace, they will be expected to communicate precisely and effectively

My friend does - he writes the most stunning scientific algorithms. Yes, it makes life a lot easier if the English comes easily to you but it is not the be all and end all for a scientist. And as I pointed out - if this sort of child isn't allowed to do triple science, what will they have to do instead? Most other subjects require a greater balance of language skills, not less.

[paranoidparent]

Just to go back to dreamingofsun's original post.
The "Science and innovation investment framework 2004-2014: next steps" report, see link below (and open the PDF). states:

"An entitlement from 2008 for all pupils achieving at least level 6 at Key Stage 3 to study three separate science GCSEs to increase progression to, and attainment at, A level science"

Yet, my D/S's school want a minimum of 6B at Science, Maths, and English to do triple science. Other UK schools seem to want different KS3 levels, some want Level 7 for science, others stipulate Level 5 for English, most don't mention English, it's a disparate mess!
Seems each school can choose its own entry level for triple science despite the above apparent "entitlement".

webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/+/http:/www.hm-treasury.gov.uk/bud_bud06_adscience.htm

[paranoidparent]

Bridging courses: This is the web definition:

"Course to enable you to achieve the required level of assumed knowledge needed for admission in a particular academic program"

Sounds a bit pompous, seems to be short courses run by many UK educational institutions, often during the holidays? Extra study to get you up to scratch would be my best guess.

[TheFallenMadonna]

No bridging course required. Triple Science has breadth rather than depth.

[LeeCoakley]

I've never heard of 'bridging courses'

[LeeCoakley]

I can't believe there isn't enough time to cover the syllabus! If the syllabus has changed so much that double students haven't covered the basics for A-level then ALL students need to be given the CHOICE of taking the triple if they want to do science(s) post 16. Schools can't play God and destroy someone's career choices at 15! A few years ago the double was good enough for A-levels (Dd2 got a B in A-level Biology in 2010 having only taken the double) and I hope dd3's school are just as sensible. I hope it's not league tables that are behind all this.

[paranoidparent]

My understanding is this: that the triple science pathway is vital if sciences are chosen for A level. Double award is fine if science is not going to be taken at A level. The report below states:
3.9.1 Most teachers felt that Triple Award was the best foundation for the study of A Level Science subjects because of its depth of coverage.

3.8.1 Most teachers said that the main disadvantage of Double Award was that it was not
the most appropriate foundation for the study of A Level Science subjects.

3.8.2 Because bridging courses were required for Double Award pupils, teachers said that
there was a lack of time to cover the syllabus, to consolidate learning and to revise.

3.8.7 The mathematical content in Double Award was said by some teachers to be
inadequate for those who progressed to the study of science at A Level.

The Transition from GCSE Science to GCE A Level Science: A Report by The Northern Ireland Council for the Curriculum,Examinations and Assessment (see link)

gtcni.openrepository.com/gtcni/bitstream/2428/6280/1/TransGCSEGCEsci.pdf

[paranoidparent]

It's all about SPaG (spelling and grammar) Ofqual advised the Secretary of State to implement its recommendations. see link below

comment.ofqual.gov.uk/gcse-reform/introduction/background-to-the-changes/

4.50 When young people compete for jobs and enter the workplace, they will be expected to communicate precisely and effectively so we think that changes in the last decade to remove the separate assessment of spelling, punctuation and grammar from GCSE mark schemes were a mistake. We have asked Ofqual to advise on how mark schemes could take greater account of the importance of spelling, punctuation and grammar for examinations in all subjects.

(DfE White Paper 2010, The Importance of Teaching)

[lelly88]

Another mum of dyslexic DS here he was streamed bottom set in yr 7 due to his English problems. Took easier maths exam in yr 7 but same science exam as all streams. Sets came into play in yr 8. Was moved to set 3 on the strength of his science result (unable to compare maths as the lower maths exam put him 176 in year).
To cut a long story short he is in Yr 9 top boy in his now set 1 class for maths and has chosen triple science option after excellent science exam results -still awaiting confirmation on acceptance.
English and RE subjects are the only ones which are a bit . He believed himself to be the dumbest in primary school, he is so not. Cats scored high for NV and Quant
were ignored, Ed Psych moved in and talked about disability discrimination concerning his low setting in English which encompassed humanities and languages in the same set. They moved him to set 3 but she wanted him in set 2, his results are highest of the set 3 kids he's desperate to get away from certain factions in that set so has worked his butt off so fingers crossed for him.
Any way check out the disability act code of practice for schools. It states that children with disabilities should be treated favourably.
Sorry if that's long winded as I'm still about most of his treatment at school.

[mummytime]

I would have been furious if my DS (may have scraped his English GCSE, we'll see in August) had not been allowed to do Triple Science, they were his best chance for 3 GCSEs (probably A, A* and B) along with Maths. He has had the use of a computer for his exams which has helped, but there are plenty of gifted scientists who struggle with English.

[NoComet]

I've talked to her teacher, she will not tell me. The groups are not finalised, but they say the new exams have lots of writing.

I hope it will all get sorted out, but having to wait is upsetting DD1, who is usually pretty laid back.

I'm mildly dyslexic and have a postgrad science degree. I'd have got a D- for French.

[GrimmaTheNome]

paranoid, star - that's so wrong. Someone who is good at science and maths but weaker at English or dyslexic should arguably be encouraged to do triple science as they're likely to do better with that than the other options (MFL, humanities). I've a friend who was severely dyslexic - he really struggled to write coherent English so his PhD thesis and writing scientific papers was extremely difficult for him but he was a bloody genius at what he did. I think he'd scraped an O-level English, and could no more have done an MFL than fly so (in the bad old days) oxbridge lost out on a brilliant scientist. (he's a researcher in a cambridge institute now so last laugh to him).

Just looking prescriptively at levels doesn't do these children justice.

[NoComet]

I hate this system, DD1 is a natural at science, but not in the top set, set (2) and L6 (no sub levels reported)

She wants to study science at university and is really worried she'll miss the triple science set by about one place.


Hopefully they will tell us by the end of term, but the whole thing is about as clear as mud.

Dyslexic and a massive cock up over her maths ability so she started in set 3.
She has just got level 7 for maths.

I'm am not being PFB when I say she can cope with triple science. She has two adult exam passes in scientific hobbies to her name. In one she got a better mark than both the much older candidates and even got 1 mark more than her Dad (DH is idiotically clever and she is very smug about this).

[BackforGood]

MrsDTK My ds has just finished his GCSEs. In his school they did what I think your school are talking about. You have the same amount of Science timetables if you do BTEC, double or triple. The more able children can get the 3 sep subjects in the time it takes the more steady to do the double. It doesn't take up one of their 'options' so they can still do other things they want to do. However they do move along at a faster pace, obviously, so the pupils have to have demonstrated they are capable/ willing to do this, so it's not something you can 'opt' in to if you haven't been getting good grades in the previous year.

[GetDownNesbitt]

I must be overtired, as ac spent ages wondering what the Duke of Edinburgh had to do with Science options...

[TheFallenMadonna]

What MigratingCoconuts said...

We accept students from Triple and Core and Additional onto A level courses, and they are equally well prepared really. But we are geared up for it.

When we are setting, we need to have a multiple of a class size for each of the different pathways (we do Triple, Core and Additional, BTEC and Entry Level Certificate).

[Kez100]

Re English - Science papers are now including extended answers - up to 6 marks per question, in some cases. The Science papers are changing considerably and I don't think the schools are being given enough information. They will want to protect children from starting a. Course which, later, it proves they are finding tough to secure decent grades in. I think most schools are expecting Science results to drop and not because of teaching but because the exam boards have said they will be tougher to pass. The Government are demanding it.

[Kez100]

We were told that, generally, children get lower grades for triple than they do double. So, if he is predicted C in double, maybe they think he will struggle to get a decent grade in Triple.

Do think about WHY he wants to do triple. Makes sure it isn't just that it sounds better. Make sure there is good reason and that he is happy to (probably) dedicate 7.5 curriculum hours a week to science and give up an option block.

[mummytime]

Okay. At my DCs school you do triple or double in the same amount of lesson time. So only the top sets are offered triple, and anyone can choose to drop down to double (slightly slower pace and slightly less homework). DD is in a bright year so 3 tops sets (each side of the school) will start it, probably depends on how many opt out. They will also encourage those struggling to drop down to double.
More people do A'level Biology for example from Double Science than triple.

You can't do Core and Additional and stand alone Biology at the same exam sitting, because their is too much overlap. This will still be the case without modules, it will be a prescribed exam combination. Even if you do them at separate sittings most colleges, employers etc. would only count it as 2 GCSEs at most.

As for A'level it does also depend on which A'levels he wants to do. I would ask for a copy of the sixth form prospectus to check. For Physics at DCs school you need B at GCSE (Core and additional) but also B in Maths.

[paranoidparent]

I'm gutted. D/S has achieved (at KS3 summer 2012) a 7A in Science, 8B in Maths, and in English 6B overall (7C for comprehension 6B for writing and 6C for speaking and listening). The school (a state school with a good reputation) has decided he is "borderline" to be accepted for triple science because of his English score. They seem to think he might not have the English skills needed for the science exam papers? What does Shakespeare, poetry, descriptive prose, alliteration etc.etc. have to do with it? Scientific language and report writing is specific, where brevity is always an advantage. What is going on?

[dreamingofsun]

migrating - thats interesting. so if all fails and he can't do triple, he should still be ok to do science at 'a' level. thankyou

[MigratingCoconuts]

In my experience it doesn't.

When the A level courses were written the vast majority of schools didn't offer triple because of timetable constraints. Those that did tended to try to teach it in the same time frame for a double. This produced a large number of students with a very fleeting, shallow understanding of the concepts covered.
Whereas those that did the double had a more in depth understanding of fewer science concepts.

Looking at the A2 scores two years later, you really couldn't tell who had done double and who had done triple.


More schools get round the problem by offering triple as an option but I still don't think it makes any difference as to how easy or hard students find the A level.

[dreamingofsun]

migrating - his teachers said it did limit you a bit in 1 of the 3 sciences when i asked and a gov report i was reading - link towards top of these also says that. its extra lessons - so logically if you are doing more of something you usually get better at it surely?

thanks for your first point. was thinking this might be the case, but good to have it confirmed.

think that choosing GCSE's might be an art rather than a science!!

[MigratingCoconuts]

As a science teacher I would say:

1. No, students with a level 6 do not have to be offered triple science.
   

1. Yes, school's do this differently. Some offer triple as an extra option choice (thus reducing the range of GCSE's you can take). some take it as part of the same alloted time as the double and have to work faster through it.
   

1. No, doing the double award does not limit your choices at A level. I have not noticed any disadvantage. Its the quality of the grade you get that counts and not the number of GCSEs you have.

[dreamingofsun]

gelatinous - thanks for feedback - your 4 years notice comments seem sensible. not too concerned about ucl and top rung unis..i think he will be going to the rung under that. i can't help but think its better to have an A/B in history than a D in french...but i'll see what the other french teacher says.

ref science - last year they had correct number of applicants. if oversubscribed they choose the ones with the highest grades - he's 1 point off what he needs. 'disrupted science previous year was irrelevant and they couldn't be seen to be treating him any differently or all kids at his school would ask for the same treatment' was their comment. its based on performance now and results of tests - my argument here is that he's in middle set as result of previous year and hence he's working at middle set standards. so we'll see. if they said to me he wasn't good enough i'd be less frustrated and get him to do something else - but that doesn't seem to be the case and he was forecast a 'c' last year even with the appalling teaching.