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Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Relationships

Our 5th visit to the Stately Home

1000 replies

Nabster · 23/02/2009 10:59

Here we go again.

OP posts:
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twoluvlykids · 26/02/2009 17:37

No AN, it doesn't. From what I've read (I'm still ploughing through it), nothing you've written makes you sound in the slightest bit deranged.

you are not just ActingNormal, I think you are normal. It's your past, which has made you look at things in this way.

I don't know what to say about your bro, I would just tread a bit carefully, as you said, step away slowly.

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ActingNormal · 26/02/2009 17:54

Thank you for saying that. Maybe if I can believe I am normal and 'right-thinking' it will give me the confidence to trust my instincts.

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toomanystuffedbears · 27/02/2009 14:53

Acting Normal,
You have a choice. Change and heal or not. Sorry to be so blunt about it. Change can be scary, but change for you is not going to a darker place-you are going to a better existence. It does take work and it is not easy-so 'cowgirl up' and 'get 'er done'.
You have already faced it, you have finished the discovery part which is, imho, the most shocking. Now adapt for you, not for anyone else.

Please do not take the advice of a professional lightly. But if you need a second opinion from a different counselor then get one. But really, isn't it common knowledge that sex offenders can not change/heal? That is why they have registries. I am sorry that it is your brother. Just stupid, (insert obscenity) dumb luck.

You are right to be free of/from him. That is healthy for you, that is happiness for you. You are not responsible for his happiness! Your feelings of fear should reinforce the direction that being rid of him is right. Hopefully, he won't hold it against you; he should just move on and use someone else (and don't ever let there be even a tiny chance he'd have access to your children).

Saying "no"? There is always the ever present and truthful response:
"I'm sorry, my schedule is full."
Don't give "a little" to be thinking you are letting him down easily. "A little" to him means he gets more next time and it will be harder to put him off. He will play the guilt card on you in spades.
Your schedule is full.

I know you are going through a very turbulent time and it is a disturbing time. Please do not waver-you are important and you can count on yourself.

Sorry to seem so preachy and lecturing. There is a threshold here for you and I sincerely want you to have the courage and strength to step forward and cross it, solve it, and heal. Good luck.

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ActingNormal · 27/02/2009 16:53

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ActingNormal · 27/02/2009 20:18

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PurpleOne · 28/02/2009 16:54

What on Earth makes a mother turn her back on her own child?
I'm really struggling with those thoughts right now.

Yeah, I know she's the toxic critical bitch from hell and I'm much better off without her. I'm sitting here wondering what would be going through her head to shut off her own kid.
Considering the fact that she already lost a son many years ago...and now me!

Hello to everyone x

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ActingNormal · 28/02/2009 17:35

PurpleOne, just try to know that it wasn't your fault, it was your mother's. There is nothing wrong with you that caused her to do it. She did it because of her own deficiencies.

I want to apologise for going on and on about the same thing in some of my posts. I am feeling a bit better today. I now feel I understand why I have felt the way I have and I feel clearer on what I want to do practically next.

I try not to talk to DH about my family at all because I felt he had taken all he could take and it was no longer fair on him. But by today my mood had got so bad from worrying about things and anxiety that it was affecting DH and the DCs. He finally forced me to talk about it and said some logical things which have really helped me feel better. He said that while he doesn't want to talk with me about my family all the time and so much that it dominates our lives (like in the past), if something is affecting me so much that I'm starting to feel ill and my mood is getting so bad that it is affecting him and the DCs then I should talk to him.

I think maybe I was being a bit 'all or nothing' in not talking about my family at all to him! Anyway I feel more supported by DH since he said that and that feels good and a relief that he does care after all! In some ways DH is the best person to talk to because he has known me for years and how I think, he knows the family situation and knows the people involved. I feel like DH has calmed me down today while Therapist wound me up and made me really scared of things the other day! I can see that maybe it is healthy that I got some of my feelings out about my brother from childhood and present, which I seem to have a lot of denial about, but I think maybe I should get the perspective of logic as well as emotions from DH at the same time sometimes so that I don't become so emotional that I can't function in my everyday life!

What do people think about this - do therapists sometimes get you wound up (maybe on purpose!) more than you need to be, as a method for getting you to release your emotions? It feels good to release them a bit but I don't want to feel that intense all the time, just a relatively quick 'burst' of emotion is enough for me! So in future I think I will let Therapist 'wind me up', release a few emotions, then get a bit of logic from DH to calm me down again.

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PinkyMinxy · 01/03/2009 22:00

I have been away from mnet for a bit. Went to a verry dark place for a few days. Fog seems to be lifting slightly.

AN- I think I know what you mean about the therapist getting you verry stirred up. THe fallout from assessment session was terrible. Saw the chap I am going to see regularly on thurs and he was very good. Bit unconventional- doesn't do all that reflecting back, but makes more of a conversation out of things. I found it a lot easier to cope with. I have 3 small children to look after- I couldn't cope with being in bits after every session. He is starting me off gradually, with some work on boundary setting.

Already panicking that I will let him down with my homework.

M is coming over tomorrow. I set a time for her to come. SHe didn't like it. I don't know what mood she will be in, but at least DH will be home. He says I should go get my haircut whilst she is here, but that would wind her up even more. I keep putting her off and avoiding her, but it is so hard.

Part of my fear is her recent thing that she and D are getting old (most people her age have only just retired) and she is going to really enjoy having me wipe her arse- as she puts it. THere is no way she would expect my DB or Dsis to do this. I am obviously the one earmarked for the job. It is NOT going to happen.

I still feel like I want to run away, like a child. To disappear. But the other side of me will stay and fight for the right to a happy life with my DH and our children.

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oneplusone · 02/03/2009 12:32

Hi all, am going to apologise in advance as I just need to offload, haven't been able to log on for a while and feel like I am going to explode.

I have been feeling really angry lately, angry at my parents, but not for anything specific, just in general at how they took the whole parenting thing so casually, never gave it a moment's thought, especially not to the consequences that bad parenting would have for me. They have no idea and couldn't care less about how they stole my childhood away from me and they would NEVER have thought twice about what they did if I hadn't cut them off. Even after I cut them off they only 'apologised' because i told them, via my sisters, that I thought they should apologise to me, and even then i know they only did it because they thought they might get to see their grandchildren.

They took away what were supposed to be the best and happiest years of my life, and i can never get those years back, i can never re-live them. They are gone forever and not only that i am still to this day having to spend loads of time and energy sorting out the mess they left behind. When i was emotionally at my worst last year my physical health was so bad that i think there may be long term damage that i may never recover from.

It makes me so angry as I have suffered hugely, in so many ways, and yet i know that even now, right at this very moment probably, my parents only feel sorry for themselves.

It is just so UNFAIR that they should get away pretty much scott free with treating me in a way that simply would not be tolerated if an adult was treated like that outside the home. It's not just their lack of love that bothers me, it's their lack of honour or integrity. The way they refused to face up to what they did, to admit it was wrong and to genuinely apologise. I hate the sneaky way they tried to get away with it all, by never mentioning it, by shutting me up if i ever mentioned it, by putting on an act of being perfect parents in public (mainly my mother) and just by generally ignoring the past and pretending it never happened. And then when i refused to shut up and refused to go along with their pretence they then tried to make out I was mad or being unreasonable and ungrateful.

I know this is all absolutely classic toxic parent behaviour. Sometimes i still find it all a bit surreal in a way, to know the truth about my childhood and parents, that it wasn't a happy, normal childhood like i always believed it was. That i am not like my sisters or friends or cousins who i grew up with, I am different, i was treated differently. I am sure many of my friends/cousins did not have perfect childhoods or perfect parents, but i know they had parents who tried their best and genuinely cared about them even though they probably made mistakes like i am sure i am doing now with my own children. But their parents did not abuse them or neglect them to the extent that they are now damaged as adults like me. I realise now that what i went through was at the extreme end of abuse/neglect. It was mainly emotional/psychological abuse, although physical abuse was always a lingering threat as well, but i know now that what i went through was what only a small percentage of children go through. I think i have been trying to comfort myself with the thought that child abuse and neglect is more common that we all think and i am not the only one who has been through something truly terrible and horrific, but i think i have been deluding myself. I think the extreme cases of abuse/neglect are still relatively uncommon, but i think i am in that category. And my physical symptoms, which thankfully are improving by the day, are evidence of how bad the abuse was for me. As even my doctor/specialist said that when my symptoms were really bad they were worse than other people's. I think my external physical symptoms had a direct correlation with the emotional damage inside. When i look back now at what i went through i honestly do not know how i survived and even appeared normal and happy throughout it all and later when i was older. I realise now i psychological terms I 'adapted' very well to my environment in order to survive, but those 'adaptations' are what are causing me huge problems now, in that i have to identify and 'undo' them as they are no longer needed in the environment in which i now live, they were always 'abnormal' adaptations to an abnormal unhealthy environment,so no wonder they are not needed now that i am a 'normal' 'healthy' family.

Ok, will go now.

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roseability · 02/03/2009 13:34

Anyone else dreading Mother's Day? I sometimes feel like I hate my mother, yet have to buy her a card and present to keep the peace.

I have also lost my birth mother, so it brings back my grieving for her.

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roseability · 02/03/2009 13:43

oneplusone

You have been through far worse than I have. Emotional and mental abuse (which I believe I suffered as well) is terrible. It is often hard to convey and sometimes people from 'normal' families can't understand it.

The hardest thing I have found is the internalisation of the believe that I am a bad person, as that is what I was led to believe from an early age. The lack of self esteem and chronic questioning of one's actions and beliefs. It can make your own parenting incredibly difficult.

Your parents are terrible for what they have put you through. Well done for cutting them out and trying to build a better family life

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oneplusone · 02/03/2009 13:49

Sorry me again. I read a thread on MN just now about someone who's DH got angry about something and acted aggressively. Some posters said they would have been scared by the DH's behaviour. But i read it and knew i wouldn't bat an eyelid if my DH ever behaved like that. (Not that he would.) But the point I'm making is that I hate being hardened to this type of bad, horrible, nasty aggressive behaviour, because it's what I grew up with. I hate being hard or seeing tough. This is going to sound pathetic but I want to be and come across as a really soft, feminine woman, but i know (and DH has kind of said at times) that i often come across as quite hard and tough and cold and well, like a man. And I HATE this about myself. And i know it's because of my childhood, i know i had to become hard and act tough and aggressive in the face of my dad's abuse and bullying and nastiness. I always acted like i didn't care and that his behaviour didn't bother/affect me. But now it seems as an adult instead of coming over as a gentle person (which is how i actually feel inside) i come across as hard and tough. And I absolutely hate it, i want to change but i don't know how. I want to be more feminine, girly, but any softness, girliness, femininity was knocked out of me my dad, who always seemed to sneer at any sign of girliness when i was a child. He seemed to despise the very qualities that make a woman and woman and i feel he tried to turn me into a boy (he probably wished i was a boy at birth) by trying to make me tough and hard. He almost made me ashamed to be a girl and be girly and now i can't be girly even though i want to be. I almost feel embarressed to be feminine and girly, and yet i know this is only because of my dad's attitude when i was younger. I think the fact that his abuse started when i was 10, just when i was beginning to mature and go through adolescence, must have affected my development in a big way. I almost feel i was turned into a boy, (not physically of course) but somehow in many other ways in terms of my personality and character. I think my dad could 'cope' with the fact that i wasn't a boy when i was younger as young children are almost genderless in a way, but once i started getting older and obviously started becoming more 'girly' or growing into a 'woman' he couldn't handle it. This is one of the biggest things i hate about myself and it is one of the hardest to change. I want to find my 'inner woman' as i think she was scared away by my dad who wanted a boy not a girl and so i 'adapted' and became a boy as much as i could. I know this must sound completely nuts to all of you, but it's on my mind a lot and i have been scared to write it down because i know it sounds so crazy.

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oneplusone · 02/03/2009 13:57

roseability, thank you for your post. It feels nice to know you have read my post and care about what i have said (even though we have never met). I'm having a very emotional day to today, a lot of stuff seems to be coming to the surface for some reason.

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roseability · 02/03/2009 15:41

I think abusive parents often 'come out' in the pre pubescent or adolescent years. Just when you are becoming more independent or as you said more gendered, they feel they are losing their control over you. My father turned very nasty when I became a teenager.

What you feel inside is most important, most of us put on a front. You are a woman and a mother and therefore motherly.

I remember I hardly cried throughout my therapy sessions and my counsellor noted this. I felt bad (like I do about most things) because I couldn't express the emotions I often feel inside outwardly. I thought I must have come across as heartless and cold. It is a defence mechanism but we do feel it inside

Sorry you are having a bad day. Can you treat or pamper yourself in any way?

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Highlander · 02/03/2009 15:46

I've just finished Oliver james' "Parents, They Fck You Up". Given me a ,lot of insight into my parents' abusive behaviour. Well* worth a read. I feel a lot better for it.

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ActingNormal · 02/03/2009 15:55

A quick thought I had about revenge - I believe a lot of people who hurt other people do it because they feel crap themselves already, so do we need revenge? or just contempt for them and dismissal because we can see that they aren't strong enough to deal with their emotions instead of taking them out on other people.

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ActingNormal · 02/03/2009 16:06

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PinkyMinxy · 02/03/2009 18:16

Oneplusone/Roseability I think it is very telling that I had my breakdown at 13- as you say, this is when the really overrtly nasty stuff came out- the constant shouting at me, telling me I thought too much of myself, telling me I am nothing.

I am sorry you are feeling so sad today, oneplusone.

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ActingNormal · 02/03/2009 18:38

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PinkyMinxy · 02/03/2009 20:42

AN I have a fear of my parent's disapproval. And it is a fear. I am beginning to realise how much I have suppressed my own personality, and in some ways how badly I have behaved in order to fit in with my family.

I thought my childhood was normal. I thought it was my own failings that led me to starve myself to the point I could hardly get through the day, when I went to uni. My therapist put it in perspective for me- I was not given the tools in my childhood that I could use to survive adulthood. I have been lucky to have DH and his family. I could so easily have ened up replacing my parents with a horrible husband, but it was the way in which he was so refreshingly different and open about things that attracted me- it felt like light coming into my life.

Silly question- does anyone else always remember their childhood homes as being really dark?

I had starved myself before, in my teens. I wanted everything controlled- if I held everything tightly and kept myself small, things would be ok.

I remember once in sixth form, in the pub, I was out with a friend, a boy she fancied, and his mate. His mate stood up and said as loudly as he could 'you are the ugliest girl I have ever seen'. I ran out. My friend followed me and persuaded me to go back in because she fancied the other guy and she was staying at my house. Why did I let any of that happen- why did I never stick up for myself? I felt like he was right. I deserved no better.I expected no better from people. In my twisted world, this is what people were like.

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ActingNormal · 03/03/2009 09:10

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oneplusone · 03/03/2009 13:42

AN, it is amazing how similar we both are. But then not so amazing either if I think about it. Your brother and my dad played similar roles in our childhoods, a lot of emotional and psychological abuse and battering, and our mother's who were supposed to protect us from this, did nothing.

I am beginning to realise now that probably many of my problems with my relationship with DD stem not only from the non-existent relationship i had with my mother and sisters, but also with the attitude my dad had towards women which i clearly absorbed without realising it. He like your brother, seemed to despise any sort of girly/feminine 'weakness', although it wasn't even weakness, it was just normal behaviour but he saw it as weak and pathetic like any showing of emotions, crying, talking about feelings, none of it was allowed and it was always sneered at, and stamped out by my dad. And wearing girly clothes, i remember once i bought a lovely girly top and my dad didn't like it and made my mum return it to the shop. Like you I have always steered away from wearing feminine girly clothes for fear of what people would think, i have always been sure i would be stared at and i know i would feel completely self conscious, as if it was obvious to everyone that i was somehow dressed in someone else's clothes. Like you i have always worn 'mannish' boots and clothes and until recently i felt quite at home in these sorts of clothes. But recently i don't, i feel really 'manly' in what i am wearing, boots, jeans, dark tops, and I hate it. I want to be more feminine in the way i dress, but i almost don't know wear to start, i have been wearing the same types of clothes for so long.

This morning DH and I had a bit of an argument, nothing major, but he said a couple of hurtful things and got annoyed when i started crying. I didn't say much but inside i felt like i am the sort of person who people think they can say anything to and i won't feel it, i won't be hurt, because i must appear tough and hard and cold and that's what people react to. But inside i feel quite fragile, and i do get hurt very easily, i am very sensetive but it is obvious none of this shows on the outside because of the way people treat me and act towards me, DH included.

AN, I'm glad you said that you have managed to gradually push your boundaries by wearing more girly stuff. That's exactly what i want to do, but it feels scary for some reason. I'm glad you used the word 'gradually' as i think i will definately have to do things gradually, i don't think i can go out and buy a whole new wardrobe of girly stuff, i need to get a couple of things at a time.

The more I think about it the more i realise that how i feel is due to my dad's attitude when i was an adolescent, he definately didn't want me turning into a woman and he somehow managed to stop me. Of course i did grow up, but i have never felt like a woman, i still feel like a girl, or not even that, i feel kind of genderless. I think i was desperate to have a boy when i was pregnant with DD because i was scared of having a girly girl as i wouldn't know what to do, because i felt so much like a man, although i wasn't consciously aware of any of this at the time. All i knew when i was pregnant was that i did not want a girl and i was absolutely desperate to have a boy. I feel i am finally now starting to get to the bottom of why i felt like that, somehow i have always known that the relationship with my mother/sisters was not the only reason i didn't want a girl. I realise now i definately took on my dad's attitude towards women, the way he despises women and their so called 'weaknesses'. He definately encouraged us all to be like boys, including in the career we chose, i wasn't allowed to go to art school like i wanted, i had to do something that is very masculine and male dominated and i have always hated it and never fitted in in any of the places i have ever worked. And now i know why.

I am so glad i posted about all this, about feeling like a man, i felt so silly and also a bit ashamed about it, but it feels very very good to know that at least one other person knows what i mean.

AN, I'm sorry you're having such a difficult time in dealing with the issues created by your relationship with your brother. You sound confused and pulled in all directions by your different emotions and feelings about him. I can only relate to you a little bit in that i have conflicting emotions about my sisters sometimes, but not to the same extent as you seem to have about your brother and my sisters don't make demands of me that i feel uncomfortable about like you clearly do with your brother's demands.

The only thing i can say is give yourself time, spend time just thinking about all your feelings towards him, and perhaps after a while it will become clear to you what you need to do. This is how i have dealt with things with my sisters, i have been through quite a few emotions about them, from wanting to cut them off, to wanting to tell them i will be happy when my parents die, but i haven't acted on any of these emotions, and over time i have managed to work out the root cause of my emotions and that in itself has resolved them. I now feel much more at peace with my relationship with my sisters, i myself make no demands of them, i expect nothing from our relationship and i think it is this 'letting go' which has given me a lot of peace and also liberation.

But i know your situation with your brother is different and i just don't feel qualified to make any real comment to you. I'm sorry, i wish i could help more.

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ActingNormal · 03/03/2009 14:49

Thank you so much OnePlusOne, reading your stuff makes me feel much less alone. It feels like a relief reading similar things to how I feel/felt.

Wrt pushing the boundaries with your appearance, I had a phase when I felt really jealous of my DD's 'freedom' to wear whatever she liked the look of in the shops - freedom from doubts about what people would think. So I bought a load of stuff that I liked the look of without thinking about whether I would have the courage to wear it. I started wearing it and I felt good at first and felt that it looked good, and DH liked it but after wearing a girly outfit for almost a day I felt too uncomfortable and self conscious and had to change into my usual clothes. I would try again another day and feel uncomfortable again after a while. I was trying to wear 'the whole look' at once and it was too 'scary' for me.

So then I did it more gradually, eg I can wear my usual black, grey, brown, cowpat green everything apart from I will wear a pink top with it! This feels ok because anyone can see I'm not totally girly, just the top! Another eg. I bought a camouflage print handbag (it is actually a 'manbag' from a man's clothes shop!) and then bought a pale pink flower and pinned it on. Sometimes I wear all my black and cowpat stuff but satisfy my feminine side by wearing a necklace and painting my nails and wearing a pale pink watch or pale pink sandals. So I accessorise my black and cowpat with girly little bits! I quite enjoy the contrast and 'incongruity' of this.

It may seem shallow to go on about 'fashion' on this thread but it can make a huge difference to how you feel about yourself and your self image! (especially when part of your problem is being brainwashed into hating your own gender, a big part of yourself, and denying yourself it!!!) I know a girl who seems to me to have big mental issues even though her family are very nice and I think it is because as a child at school she was very ugly! She felt like an unpopular misfit because of this and it has affected her ever since even though she would be considered one of the best looking women now!

This has just made me giggle - I used to say to DH "I can't wear that because I will look like such a girl" and he used to say "But you are a girl and I fancy girls!"

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oneplusone · 03/03/2009 14:58

AN thank you for your post and also your examples of how you approached wearing more girly stuff. I really do need advice on even the most basic way to make changes and I like the way you have done things, I am sure that approach could work for me. I have started buying the odd 'non-black/cowpat' (love your description, made me lol!) coloured clothes. DH was surprised but said i looked good! Made me feel wonderful.

I am definately going to deliberately look for more colour, my wardrobe right now is just black and cowpat. Am looking forward to it actually, i have been wanting to get some new clothes for ages, but have been too 'scared' to get what i really want and yet don't want to get the same old stuff i have been buying for years because of my 'anti-feminine' brainwashing. And also i don't want to look 'sexy', just feminine and girly.

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oneplusone · 03/03/2009 15:00

I am so glad you said you felt 'scared' going too girly all at once as that is how i feel but i feel silly for feeling that way. Am so glad it's not just me and that i am able to talk about it on here. I have felt like this for a long time but have avoided posting because it just seems so mad. (About the feeling like a man).

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