"But we took you to stately homes" part 3

[oneplusone]

Sorry for starting part 3 if it has already been started but i logged on just now and found the previous thread has reached 1000 posts. And my title is not very inspiring, Ally90, please help!

smithfield, as usual i have very little time but i can totally relate to feeling guilty at being in a different place emotionally when i had DD as compared to DS. I know i wasn't emotionally available to DD in her earliest most crucial years and I know the longing she must have felt for her mummy to be there for her and let her know she was loved, needed and wanted. I know this is how she must have felt as a baby as this is how I felt as, without knowing or realising it, when i had my DD I repeated the pattern that my mum had followed when she had me. As i've already mentioned i know my mum probably had PND, she didn't bond with me or love me in the way that i needed her to love me. I know i repeated this behaviour with DD and I think it was you that suggested to me a while ago that DD could be a 'portal' for me to my own feelings from childhood and indeed that is exactly what has happened.

HOWEVER, all of the above would very negative and depressing for perhaps both of us but for the absolutely CRUCIAL difference between us and our mothers. Although we may not have been emotionally aware to our first born DC's and unintentionally caused damage to them, we have since become completely and totally aware of ourselves, we have insight and we therefore will not and simply cannot continue, as my mum did, with a lifetime of emotional distance and lack of bond with our first born DC's. And Alice Miller says that even if damage was caused in a child's early years, the effects of that damage can be completely and utterly minimised if the mother does gain awareness and insight and can from then on be emotionally available to our DC's as I think we are both now learning to do.

I think it will always be a learning process with me and DD, whereas with DS, with whom I felt an instant bond, there is nothing to learn, the feelings are there and, at the risk of sounding dramatic, emotionally i belong to my son. Our first born children also have the benefit of loving and caring fathers which I may have had initially but not always and so I have such hope and optimism for both my DC's, despite the differences in their first few minutes, months and years, they will be loved and cherished all their lives by me and their dad and this is what will make all the difference between their childhood and mine. I am sure everything i have said is true for you and your family too, so please don't feel the guilt or constantly analyse your DS's behaviour (admittedly i was doing exactly the same not so long ago) and just enjoy your two gorgeous miracles, your constant love will heal any damage that was inadvertantly caused before you had the insight you have now.

Again sorry for such a long and rambling post, i hope you can understand what i'm trying to say. x

TMSB - congratulations on the birth of your DD. And well done for keeping yourself and your family safe from your MS at the most important time.

As the other's have said, you must put your own needs and wants FIRST, before those of your MS. Look after yourself, you deserve it, and your children need you to focus your emotional and physical energies on them, they are totally dependent on you, your MS is an adult you can fend for herself.

Sorry if i sound harsh, but this is what i have to tell myself when i find myself getting drawn into my own middle sister's life too much. I have set a mental boundary for myself, my MS is an adutl and is responsible for herself, I am not responsible for her. It's very hard to do I know.

totalmisfit (you're not btw, you fit in perfectly!) sorry for taking so long to get back to you, busy with kids etc.

As anyone that 'knows' me on this thread the books I have read have all been by Alice Miller. I can't remember in which one she mentions about us somehow transferring our childhood feelings of rage at our siblings onto our DC's, but it could possibly have been the Drama. Are you familiar with Alice Miller? I have read and re-read her books countless times over the past year or so and it is only by re-reading that i notice things in her books that i may have missed first time around. The mention of siblings is only one or two lines iirc, but it stuck in my mind and surfaced again recently when i found myself feeling complete rage at my poor DD for some utterly minor thing she had done. What i felt was completely out of proportion to her behaviour and my feelings, like yours, seemed to come out of nowwhere. I feel soooooo guilty as i have done this more times than i care to remember and it is only recently that i have come to realise where the rage comes from. I always apologise to DD afterwards but it does nothing to ease my guilt and anguish at the injustice she has suffered because of me.

Btw, Alice Miller has a great website alice-miller.com

Hi there,
just wanted to say a big thank you, I have read all your postings without comment until now.
I am learning through your shared experiences that I need to be my own person with my parents and stop acting like a frightened teenager.
In the last month I have handled things totally differently with my family and feel so good (if a bit scared) by it.
May go back to lurking but really wanted to let you know that others lurk and are helped. Jen x
ps Congratulations on your new baby TMSB

Hi Jingleyjen, I did the same when i first found the original thread. I even printed it off, all 200 pages!

Have you read the other 2 threads as well?

I am glad the thread has helped you, it has helped me so much, i was so happy when I found it. Keep lurking or posting or both, whichever you prefer! x

Yesterday I felt like i had to emotionally 'let go' of my youngest sister. We never had a close relationship growing up and until now i think i was clinging on to the hope that somehow now things would be different and we would suddenly be close. I think i am longing for some sort of closeness with someone in my family, i know it will never be with my parents so that only leaves my 2 sisters. I am in touch with my middle sister but i think she has her own reasons for being in touch with me and it's nothing to do with wanting a real relationship with me. I think she holds a grudge against me for cutting off my parents, who she feels sorry for (just like in the drama triangle, my parents are the 'victims', my sisters are their 'rescuers' and of course i am the 'persecutor'). I am sure she sees me as the baddie but for some reason she is willing to overlook that fact as she needs me as she has nobody else to talk to/confide in.

It was very sad letting go of any real hope of a relationship with my youngest sister, i think she is the one who is least damaged out of all of us, and is therefore the most genuine and authentic sibling. But neither of them have any idea of just what i have been going through over the last 18 months (i feel i have been on a crash course in psychology/families/dysfunctionality) whereas they have no knowledge on the subject. I don't even think they have any real idea that ours was a highly dysfunctional family.

have only read this one..
I avoided the other threads because I knew they touched on things that I wasn't ready to face.
I am just so determined to not turn into my mother that I will do anything and facing things is a start.
My sister and I had a great talk about how things were and how they are getting worse as we are getting older and it clicked. Our Mother is finding it hard to cope with the fact that my sister is stronger than she was (she is just divorcing her husband - My Mum put up with my dad cheating twice) and according to my sister Mum is finding it hard to cope with me being a better mum than she was. All of her recent toxic behaviour (great phrase) is to punish us for being and doing things that she never could.
Anyway enough from me for now..

Hi Ally, Smithfield, oneplusone and all,
Well, I thought I emailed MS back yesterday and put 'save a copy' for my sent file, but it didn't show up and I wonder if my missive was sent??? Me idiot....
I gave 4 lines on the birth including
"By the way, DD2's full name is _ since you were to preoccupied with other issues to ask."
If she did get it, there will be no doubt now of my perspective- I said there was no way I could make my pregnancy, birth, new baby be about her. I went into the Maternity Leave and how insulting and diminishing it was and that I'd never forgive her for it; how there is no talking to her for her reflexive power plays of dismissiveness, corrections, last words, etc; and more, and ended with
If this doesn't offer you a clue on your journey of self-reflection and 'if you can't figure it out by yourself', then do what you'd normally do and hire a professional.
I did write that I thought she thinks TMSB is the one with a problem but stated very clearly it is not me, it is her.

Basically an honest venting, it felt good to write it and push the send button...but did she get it? I do not know. She may have my address blocked for all I know.

Well, you are all right and in harmony with DH- I need a break from this. DH says I owe her NO explanation under any circumstances anyway...so I will 'leave it' (one of MS's dogie commands). I do have to work on getting her voice out of my head.

Thank you for your support, and stating her letter was to keep me or bring me back into her version of experience/reality to deny me the truth of my experience/reality. Nothing said about MS could be felt as 'too harsh'-no worries there.

Before I found out I was pregnant, I had already started to try to distance myself from her. It was very hard especially without knowledge (from books) and your support, and the counseling. I said in the phantom email that my pregnancy really brought out her 'true colors'-another one of her favorite phrases. It amplified her NPD to such an extent, as you can see from these past few weeks, that I can or will have no sympathy for her from now on.

Yes, I'm in US.
MS is 47 years old.
And yes, OS is one of the nicest people that ever drew a breath. She obviously respects me by not going behind my back to call MS; MS obviously does not respect me by expecting that OS would. More clarity

I have offered suggestions to others here of "not participating" and I will follow my own advice. The letter is bait. I will respond no longer.

Thanks- more than I can say.

Hello all, how are you?

I went to see one of my 3 potential counsellor's yesterday evening. I ended up telling her a lot of things which I hadn't really planned on talking about on the first appointment. I realised I still have quite a long way to go as although I have had a lot of 'realisations' and done a lot of work myself, and I've also written lots of things down and found it theraputic, but I have never actually talked out loud and told someone in real life about some of my most traumatic experiences from my childhood and about how I felt so lost and lonely and scared and hurt. My previous counsellor I realise whilst not damaging in any way didn't really draw me out to talk about my experiences. Although perhaps he could sense that I simply wasn't ready to talk about some of the terrible things I experienced and I know I wasn't. It was hard enough to just allow the memories through never mind to actually talk about what happened. But I do feel ready now to talk and perhaps that's why I ended up saying a lot more than i intended to the counsellor i saw yesterday.

But the problem i have is that i don't really know how to decide which counsellor to choose. The one i saw yesterday didn't really say much, she just listened. I suppose i felt comfortable with her generally, but i did feel slighly uncomfortable about her reaction, just through her facial expression at one or two things i told her. I have 2 more to see, I suppose it will be quite obvious if i don't 'like' someone. I went to see a counsellor once over a year ago and i knew straightaway that she wasn't right.

I would appreciate hearing about your experiences of finding a good counsellor and how you went about it and how you decided which one was right for you.

Mikafan and matildax, how are you both? I notice you haven't posted recently, (not that you're obliged to of course) but I just hope you are feeling ok. I have found my 'down' days have ultimately been the most 'profitable' if iykwim. For me, feeling down has meant that some new memories, thoughts and feelings are surfacing, and once they have surfaced and I have had a good cry and processed them i feel so much better and i know i have moved forward. I have learnt this through having been on this journey for over a year, and i sincerely hope and beleive that the same will be true for you too.

Ahhh - just lost it with DS1 on the way to school. Its all about me wanting to control him, he never shuts up, never leaves his brother alone, is always in his face pushing and whining. I say don't do that XXX and he returns to me with don't do that mummy - like a parrot. We go to school and there he is on the stairs, looking at me - saying I am not well mummy I don't want to go swimming. And all i can think is f**k off me and leave me alone, I can't handle you needing me because I have enough problem dealing with myself

I go on my course a week on Friday, its like through all the pre-process work I have opened up so many sores - it's almost I can't help scratching them. Literally as well, I have suddendly got really itchy (just as I used to itch as a child) and I have this strange metallic taste in my mouth. I just want to lock myself away in a room .

I hate me as a parent, DS1 has become really empathatic to my moods - I apologise for shouting and he then apologises - I say you don't need to apologise you haven't done anything wrong. He will say anything to try and make my happy, to try and make it right. He's only 6 and I have done so much damage to him already. He is so sensitive to all my moods, just like i was to my mum. Its almost like I can't believe he loves me, why would he love me I'm not particularly lovable.

That feels better for writing it down.

Hi oneplusone, I'm still here, I just don't have anything to contribute at the moment. I've thankfully still heard anything from my mum and I don't think about her which is cool with me - long may it last

I'm sorry to hear about everyone else feeling so down. I only wish I had words of wisdom for you all but I don't

Hi kaz, i can relate to your situation with your DC's, I have definately been there and done that. I think the problem we have is that we don't know what's normal. Would another mum, who didn't grow up in such a dysfunctional family occasionally feel as we do towards our DC's and treat them as we sometimes do? I often think about this and wonder whether some of our feelings and behaviour are common to all parents regardless of their own upbringing.

I suppose it's something we will always struggle with. I too always say sorry to DD when i have been unreasonably angry with her. Luckily now i recognise instantly when my rage is triggered by her but stems from my childhood. The only problem is i only realise after i have shouted at her usually . I am optimistic though that i will soon learn to recognise it before i shout at her and not shout at all. The incidents are far far less now than they have been in the past so i have taken that to mean that i am making progress in all of this.

I'm sure you will see an immense change in yourself after you have been on the course and you're right in that all the preparation you have to do beforehand must be triggering memories, feelings and emotions from your childhood.

Like i said i will be very interested to hear about the course and it is something i may consider in the future as well. x

Thanks 1+1 - I thought I was getting better and calmer but then this comes out of the woodwork and smacks me in the face.

Ah well, we might make a cake after school - daddy is coming home after a few days away so it will be a nice suprise for him and good mummy bonding time.

hello all, and thanks for the kind words oneplusone. also ally90 thankyou for your messages, hope you are feeling ok, big hugs
i havent posted for a few days, but have logged in ,just to read what others have written. i think with regards to therapy, you must be 100% comfortable and at ease with your therapist.
my last one was great, but then i found out i was pregnant with my ds and i decided not to carry on at that time (he did say i could return whenever i wanted, but not sure at the moment, its all so painfull)
the days after were always really horrid, although i do think i was becoming slightly stronger in myself.
oneplusone, again i have seen "that look" in a councellor i once saw. i dont really think we clicked, i remember once not turning up for an appointment, and she got really cross with me, telling me time was money!!! no regard whatsoever for my emotional state!! she also could not understand that i did not/still do not "hate" someone in my family who hurt me a lot physically and mentally when i was very small... i could understand her reasoning, but she refused point blank to consider mine.
perhaps i am wrong, and i am sure is something like that happened to one of my children i would be horrified and would "hate" aswell, oh i dont know maybe im completely crazy.
love to you all, have a good week xx

Small children are small children and well, been there done that- know the fatigue+frustration+just feeling defeated+feeling driven insane.

I read a book very early on when my ds & dd1 were tiny- it was a book for communicating with teenagers, but I read it anyway.
The title was something like: How to listen to your teenagers so they will talk and how to talk to your teenagers so they will listen." It was helpful, but I read it so long ago I won't try to quote from it.

A couple of concepts I always try to follow are whenever I say "no" to something, always give an acceptable option. Having "no" said to you all the time would frustrate anyone (any age) so the acceptable option relieves that. Also, try to stop what you are doing and make eye contact when talking to the child. This little thing gives a lot of respect with it and makes the child visible, validated-as opposed to being invisible and unimportant.
Good luck; it is very hard to catch a reflex or unconscious reaction in the moment. But we all know that it is important to try, keep on trying...and the rewards will undoubtedly be worth it- for everyone.
--
I feel a web of contradiction for myself.
Recognizing and identifying and giving credibility to my feelings has been a great break through for me. But then situations arise that I should keep quiet, or not respond, or (I guess) turn around and shut myself down on purpose. How ironic. But I know in doing so myself is me being in control of my life and not letting someone else control me.

My lovely MS sent me a box yesterday, presumably my birthday gift, but addressed to "The 's". I did not open it.

Today, two boxes arrived, I will presume full of baby gifts. They both are addressed to my baby girl. One from lovely MS and the other from MS's neighbor (although the handwriting on the label looks very similar to MS's hand ). (I have spoken with her neighbor several times and she's ok, she's an older retired lady, I wonder if MS has adopted her as a surrogate mom.) Just an old fashioned power play...dare me to not respond with a thank you note to her neighbor. Or should I send the neighbor a thank you note and not MS? I think not: the neighbor has known her long enough to know what she is.

Anyway, DH is and said "they are from Miss Manipulation" and he supports me in the best response is no response.
I was tempted to return the boxes with a "letter" making my feelings very clear. But that would be letting myself be drawn back into the drama triangle.

I'll store them in the garage. Original plans had MS coming to "help" me on 21 Mar.
I'm wondering if she will show up-as she has seemed to either ignore (or didn't get?) my email. DH said she simply isn't welcome here anymore and so we won't allow her in. He recognized MS's presumption that I "needed" her, especially since announcing I was pg. She must have thought that was a slam dunk for her. HA DH says I don't need her to function. I said I actually function better without her. And I do-I have such a true feeling of relief. And she really was (see?! PAST TENSE!! ) the source of my depression, if that is what it really was that I was feeling: dysfunction, diminished child sister, or misfit status. She gloried in keeping me there for the permanent 'rescue' target.

Welcome Jingleyjen Sorry you found it so hard to read our other threads but its good you are here now. And good you have a sister who understands. Does your dh understand how you feel about your mother? Tell us more about you when you feel ready...even the less painful memories. Or present experiences. Anything is good

Oneplusone...I'll see how you do with your therapist interviews with interest! And re your anger, you were right to vent it here and get it down in black and white you have acknowledged its not okay and gradually, you will come to recognise you are doing it and be able to stop yourself just takes lots of time...just think beating your path through a jungle...instead of taking the well worn track ...takes lots more time to get through, but given enough will power you will succeed You are doing things differently to your mother. And like you were climbing a great height try not to look down, ie back in time, you will feel worse and you will struggle harder to get to the top of the mountain (of being the mum you want to be). Oooh I'm good on analogys today...

Kaz - yup, I get well peeved when my dd does not go down for a sleep...I act okay (i hope) but inside I'm seething with frustration and anger... think I might consider that course too... I'll watch with great interest to see how you are when you come back! Lets hope you feel better about yourself.

TMSB - love the email you sent (hopefully). Your ms is laying down the bait isn't she? Presents from her neighbour now you do right not to reply. Its giving her a response to her taunting. My therapist is big on responding with 'Please respect my request for no contact, I understand you may feel hurt/angry etc but that will change nothing'. However my dh and I have always gone for no response. Because each time they would have got a reply from me (there would have been at least 20 odd over 2 years) they would have got excited at getting something from me, as it is an acknowledgement them. Whereas no response is a brick wall. You can't get by it. And is ultimately pointless to carry on sending items.

Matildax - your welcome thanks for your thoughts on therapists...just about to vent about mine . Sounds like you have not had a good experience...and btw you are the sane one...good lord...imagine a therapist that makes you feel like you are mad...!!

Okay...my vent....

I am finishing my therapy in June. Told therapist that I did not want to be doing therapy when I'm pg (no not yet...going to try this year!!) which is true. But also I feel as if we have never really 'clicked'. He has helped a great deal re tools to help me cope in day to day life and many other things...but re emotions regarding my family I have hit a block. I feel he is 'for' them against me much of the time. Which is not good. I have emotions I need to process and I cannot with feeling he is on there side. I have raised this with him and he has denied it time and time again. Quite vemently at times. But actions speak louder than words, right? Last night all was going great...really got upset at the thought of finishing therapy with him etc...then I mentioned my separation from family this led to a 'hmmm just had a thought, not sure if I should say or not...' que me thinking 'here we go again' he reminded me of my mother wanting to say something wounding that my sister had said...so I asked him with an internal sigh...oh he came out with a gem, what if my mother died and I had not said all I wanted to say to her. Then he twisted it further suggesting the letter I sent asking for no contact had asked for an acknowledgement of my experiences...I may have had a different response. I'm flipping fuming I did not want a response. I broke all contact as my mothers behaviour, my having a small baby to cope with, I was pushed into a corner by her behaviour and my fathers behaviour. And the fact that it took 28 years for my true feelings to show. I do not want them in my life. I wanted to divorce my mother and sister at age of 9 because of their behaviour. Their behaviour since I sent the letter has been totally unacceptable and self absorbed to the point of comedy. I want a sodding therapist ON MY SIDE and not batting for the other side. I feel when I talk of my family he is constantly leading me to 'what if you did this' etc

Anyway got to go...dd has finished watching tv and needs me.

I think we need to compile a national list of therapists that understand divorce from family and support it!!

Another thought - why is the therapist so keen on getting us doing all the work? We spend years being brought up by toxic parents/families then when we realise how deeply they have affected and wounded us and work on changing ourselves, our responses etc to then show our families how to behave? Why is it on our heads to do this? Surely if they wanted to change they have had a lifetime to do so? The fact we are in therapy/analysing ourselves show we have something they dont have, insight. Something you cannot teach people. And given the fact we have been in such personal contact with our families, surely we are the last people to teach them new behaviour????? Afterall my therapist would not take on my family as he would feel the need to protect me...so how the hell am I in a better place to teach them how they should respond/behave? Or maybe I have all this wrong and got wrong end of stick????

Bloody mental bloody therapist

Sorry for venting about therapists Oneplusone...there are good one's out there... Glad you are interviewing them...something I will be doing next time!

ally- You are quite right to feel angry. A large protion of therapy, is having that supporting, unconditional relationship you never got as a child.
He is 'enforcing' his opinion, 'need' upon you. He has his own agenda for doing this. Maybe professional, maybe personal. But this in effect is exactly what our parents would do. So to continue with him now I think would undermine the work you have done to date.

Just wanted to say a bit as well about losing it with the LO's.

Been very stressful here. Well maybe not very stressful, just 'me getting stressed.' DD doesnt sleep, fusses for 6 hours from 4 til about 12midnight. But I know she is just doing what babies do.

I dread this time of day now.

At the same time suddenly ds will not go to bed with dh, he will only let me take him. And yet the baby will not settle with dh either.

So there I am upstairs trying to read calmly to a chattering (let's string bedtime out)3 year old and trying to focus on him, when all I can focus on is the crying downstairs.(are you sure about no2 ally )

And I feel the tension, anger build and build and suddenly...Bang... out it comes.

I say 'who is reading this story ME OR YOU'.

Then comes the immense guilt, cuddle and mummy 'crappy mummy', needs to apologise. AGAIN.

I realise the biggest hurdle here suddenly for me.
My parents were shocking at dealing with stress. They had a lot of it, couldnt handle any of it. The air at home often crackled with it. And they off loaded on to their kids. Lashed out often.

So they taught me how to deal with stress. And now there is a danger that I do the same to my Dc's.

I need to find another mechanism to alleviate my stress, another way of off loading it.

Any suggestions would be welcome.

I also think a great source of this stress is the inner voice/ parental voice..(.dont know what to name it yet.)

Because I had to ask myself where does this stress come from?

When Im reading to ds but feel my tension anger rising because DD is crying, I have to ask why?

Is it because I feel like I am failing?

It's the same when Ds needs me but I cant get to him because I am b'feeding dd I feel tension at not being able to do so.

So it is the internal whip that keeps lashing and building that tension in the first place.

The need to be perfect, the rising panic at being useless and that someone will pop up and tell me so very soon... and there is nothing in between.

These are the issues I have to deal with and asap. For the sake of my lovely dc's who are so innocently unaware of their mothers inner turmoil.

Kaz-
'I also I apologise for shouting and he then apologises'

My ds does this too....and he is only 3 . The minuite he sees my 'angry' or 'disaproving' face, he says 'I'm sorry, sorry mummy'.

Smithfield - been there, my two are only 2 years apart. Your little one is so small and by the sounds of it a bit unsettled, just like my DS2 was.

What did I do?

• how about a star chart for DS1, agree a set number of books (2?) of his choice and if he then settles and goes to bed he gets a star. Kids just like stars, don't need to give a reward.

• how about a dummy for DD, DS2 was very sucky - got rid of it at about 6 months without too much stress

• my DS2 loved the sound of the dryer, really settled him - I used to stand in front of the dryer and hold him. Maybe DH could try that, or even put him in carrycot and left the dryer on till he fell asleep. You can even buy white noise CD's or tape your own!

• I know you want to do everything right especially as you are aware of all your parental programming. But you have to relax, babies cry, some more than others - letting her cry while she is with DH will do her no damage. Teach DH to talk quietly and softly to her, praise him when she calms down and make him feel empowered in his dealing with him. "please will you hold her for me, she loves it/ always settles for you"

When you are breastfeeding to DD can you get DS to go and get a book so that you can read to him at the same time, the sound of your voice no doubt will help DD to settle and breastfeed. DS will feel so special being part of your time with DD, he might even start to look forward to you breastfeeding DD

It is so difficult to let go and not want everything perfect but relaxed mums make for relaxed kids.

After my terrible morning, we had a lovely afternoon - I made a cake with DS2 and we then stuffed our faces with it. It was edible as well, which makes a change as most of cakes are pretty grim!!

Smithfield - that sounds extremely tough, not sleeping AND fussing from 4pm to midnight! That is enough to make anyone stressed and harrassed! Add to that your ability (given by your mother) to make everything your fault...and having to be perfect...your going to be waiting a long time to be the perfect mum you know...and who wants a perfect mum? I'd settle for a good enough mum...one who makes mistakes and own up to them and show me the way to be a 'only human, good enough' adult. If you were perfect...how will they learn to recover from mistakes they make? And you would be quite a boring person to know I imagine . Time to override that parental voice...what you are doing is GOOD ENOUGH. This is a very hard time for the family, especially you as your trying to keep everyone okay, apart from yourself. That is quite some burden and one you will not achieve, so you fail again...you need to set yourself something achievable and take all the help your dh is offering you.

So you know 4pm to midnight is going to be stressful. You know that your son will naturally try to string out bedtime. How can we change things to take out some of the stress? When do you get even half an hour to yourself? Afterall having breastfed myself I know that you feel almost physically attached to the baby, but she will be okay for half an hour with dh without you. You need time to become human again. You cannot give give give without some nurturing time for yourself so you can go back to giving again. That could be a drive out in the car, a walk, a candlelit bath, read a book etc. With ds bedtime, how about you give yourself half an hour or whatever to settle him? Tell yourself that you are not the only one who can take care of dd, your dh is capable of it, just in a different way (and without norks...my dd knew the difference ). Allow you and ds that time together and allow yourself to relax with him. Your time at the end of the day together, just you and him. And yes dd will cry, but let dh take the brunt of it for a while. You have more than earned a break for yourself. As for feeding dd and not spending time with ds, how about reading a book together on sofa? (only read about this with siblings...naturally not experienced it yet...now having second thoughts ).

You can do this! Now how about posting on the parenting thread about your dd fussing? See what advice they come up with. And about how to spend time with ds. Get support where ever you can, there is a lot of experience and really good ideas out there if you just ask for help/advice

hugs for now xxxx

Hi Sakura

Re your comment:-

"Attila, I read the post you wrote about the way your mother treats you and then the way in which she treats your brother. If it helps, its quite clear that this different treatment is not because she loves him more than she loves you but because for whatever reason, he is easier to control. Cleaning up after someone all the time is not helping- its enabling. She's enabling him to live like a slob so that he continues to "need" her and so that she continues to have an important role and she can feel gratified that she is needed by someone. Its a little dance and has absolutely nothing to do with love.
"The COntinuum concept" and "Letting Go as Children Grow" (based on the COntinuum concept) talk about this. THat a child's room will continue to remain messy as long as the parent does not empower the child. For example as a child my room was always in a state- a real mess, and yet since I've cut off my mother, I now have a routine and am as tidy as you can be with a 1 year old. Its because I am in control of my space, my kitchen and my life. My mother would sporadically enter my room and do a spring clean while I was out (rifling through my stuff while she was at it). I would feel violated after one of her 'spring cleans'. But never once did she show me how to use the washing machine. In fact if I took it upon myself to tidy something, she'd shout "LEave THAT! I'll do THAT" as if I was stepping on her toes or something hmm.
On the first thread, Greensleeves called this "camping out in my own life" i.e not organising your space and cupboards in a way that makes sense to you. This could well be how your brother feels about all of this".

Thanks Sakura, I'll look further into that.

I also think these two (mum and brother) are controlling each other. I would certainly agree that she is doing this also to feel both needed and validated. I'd rather her get a job and a life to be honest with you but that ain't gonna happen.

Any further thoughts are welcome.

How are you btw?. I feel my parents are pretty much "tame" compared to some of the toxic and mad as a box of cut snakes parents many of these women are unfortunate enough to have for parents.

With best wishes

Attila

Kaz and ally- Thanks for your replies.

I probably sound a bit more flummoxed (is that a word?) than I actually am...It just helps to get it out.

And at the mo I have to pretty much rattle it out, no time for editing.

I feel like with dd ,Im experiencing so much difficulty, because my mother could not have met my demands as a baby.

In terms of breastfeeding, when she was visiting us when I had ds, she went out and bought a dummy (and I have no real issues with them trust me), but when I was at my weakest enforced it's use when all ds wanted was to feed. SHe would then keep looking at her watch and tutting and sighing whenever I fed him. Until I relented (exhausted and desperate)...and put him on a 4 hourly schedule.

This time I am determined to work through it. I've looked up posts on mnet about fussy times and all say the same thing...that its normal for b'fed babies to want to be at the breast most of the evening. Ok not all from 4 onwards!

I know I would have been scheduled...in fact handed to my nan probably to be fed and palced back in my crib....so I am beating a brand new path. It is not natural to me and I feel anger at the demand dd is making/placing on me so often.

But you are right ally, I should not feel guilty to take out 1/2 an hour to nurture myself as well.

Yet I must overcome this, because I know I will come out the other side a stronger parent.
Also I've got in touch with a local group that use slings, and I think that could be an answer to the early evening (when ds is around...) issues.

I should be able to keep her close, but have two hands to make ds's tea, and put him to bed with bub attached if necessary.

Don't worry,I will then be getting dh using sling too...might have to spray some eau d'a milk on him first though .

But thankyou ladies for keeping me sane...feel a bit like a sofa jailbird at the moment.

Also wanted to add - as just read this and it really makes sense to me;

That if emotionally abused there is a lot of feeling of shame.

As an adult the rage follows/tracks those feelings of shame, that's a defence mechanism to ward off anymore shame.

So maybe that's what we are doing. We feel shame when our d'cs dont behave (they are showing us up, or proving we aren't good enough parents)...then comes the rage.

Just thought this may help bring clarity, it does for me.