Help me understand the relationship with my sister

[evusister]

Namechanged for this. Apologies for a long one.

I’m gonna start by saying that our relationship with DS has always been complicated. I have two sisters that are close in age and I am 9 and 10 years younger than them. I’ve always gotten very well with my eldest sister, never had any issues despite the age gap, she’s been always friendly and supportive of me. Middle sister (DSis for this thread) on the other hand has always been on and off with me. As an armchair psychologist I would say maybe she resented me being born and “stealing” her youngest child status? But who knows.

As a child I remember she never really liked me. Was always strict with me, yelling at me to clean up my toys, she hated most of my friends, I remember she once kicked my friend out of our house when we were about 5 who came for a playdate. As I was a teenager at secondary school and uni she resented my parents giving me money (even though they supported her through school too) and only ever started somewhat accepting me once I started working, built a successful career and became independent. Our relationship improved then but still goes through waves of issues and periods of us not talking (initiated by her for any random reason).

My parents never took anyone’s side, just left us to it, partially because whenever she would get mad at them for any “injustice”, she would easily not talk to them for 6 months (so they never want to rock the boat with her). One highlight of her not talking to them included her not inviting them to her graduation. Another one when we went for a family ski trip for 5 days, she got in a mood at the end of it for no reason (literally no reason that we could understand, she just wasn’t in a good mood that day) and stopped talking to any of us for something like 4 months. Nowadays she’s mostly fine with my parents (well my dad died recently so fine with my mum) and us and it’s her DP who’s on the receiving end of her silent treatment usually.

I live abroad with my family (pregnant with DC #2 now) and visit my hometown once or twice a year for extended period to get together with everyone. She’s gone quiet on me in our WhatsApp recently because I think she was mad I planned the visit for when she was away with her family and so we only overlap for 3 days. After she blanked me on WhatsApp a few times, I stopped sending her pictures that I normally send to my mum and other sister too. This apparently made her more mad (I assume, she never tells what’s wrong). Anyway here I am, hoping to celebrate my daughter’s birthday and to enjoy the last few days of my stay with family here (I won’t come for another year at least due to pregnancy and then having a newborn) and she got here. Completely ignoring me, blanking me, chatting cheerfully to everyone else (including my DD and DH), making me feel completely awkward to even be here.

AIBU to feel like what the actual fuck? Is this in any way normal for anyone over the age of 15? What do I do? I’m sick of always approaching first, apologizing when I haven’t done anything wrong (I was sick in my first trimester so couldn’t come at different days and she knows), and I’m pissed off that she ruined my last few days of the visit.

She’s not like this to my other sister who often excludes her from their invitations etc. (and she probably would be like that to my mum but my mum knows to thread carefully around her)

With could reason.

Your mother stood back and allowed a teenager bully a small child.

Very hard to imagine.

Yes she is putting herself ahead of you again and what is right by shutting you down.

Your mother sounds ike a selfish person and I can well imagine the relationship is fraught, but that is a consequence of her choices.

You owe it to yourself and your children to mind yourself and you sound extremely aware of all the issues, but you are correct to be vigilant.

Playing favourites is poisonous to a happy family.

Thinking back to my childhood yes it does seem extremely strange to “let us sort it out” when I was a small child and 9 years younger and it effectively meant my mother took her side. Like when my little friend coming for a playdate was kicked out by my sister - surely a normal parent would say “DSis this is extremely unacceptable and not your decision to make who comes for a playdate” but that never happened and the friend of mine indeed left. I was very young but I remember that situation to this day.

My mother positions herself as selfless and basically a victim in all this and that she “raised us the same” even though it’s clear she didn’t. Part of it is her favoring the middle sister in general (most likely because she herself is also the middle sister) and part of it is just not wanting to rock the boat with her and avoiding any criticism or any confrontation to stay on her good side. She knows I always come crawling back after any conflict (whereas middle sister is capable of keeping up the silent treatment for many months) so there’s clearly no need to show any consideration to me. At least that’s the reason for the “now”, not sure what the excuse is for when I was little.

And thank you by the way for taking the time to talk to me, it’s been very helpful to talk through it and try to figure out what’s what and what to do next.

I just wish it was easier to cut them out or phase them out - for me mentally I mean. Logically it is the best thing to do.

Lazy selfish cant be arsed parenting is her excuse when you were small.

Your mother was a very poor mother and it suits her to deny it to this day.

Stop trying to make sense of it, there is no sense to it.

She did a lazy job, as did your father.

Being a good parent is exhausting and hard work.

Stressing kindness to your children takes effort.

Stop trying to bend yourself out of shape trying to make it ok.

It wasn't.

It was shocking.

I have 4 children 17-23 and they are close and get on so well., but "kind words, kind hands" were very much taught from the earliest ages.

Funnily enough my boys were gentle but my youngest as a toodler was lethal with any toy she picked up if told no.
She would waddle over and clock whomever said no to her...exhausting 😁.

Thank goodness she grew out of it by 3.

It must have been scary and confusing having a sister be so awful and your mother to stand by while it happened.

Really shocking and very much the hallmark of a dysfunctional home.

You will have internalised all that confusion and uncertainty.

Her behaviour is deeply unstable.

Your reaction to it all is very healthy, normal, but absolutely exhausting to still be dealing with it.

I think counselling will be a revelation to find out just how messed up it all was.

Never doubt yourself.
You were a tiny vulnerable child being abused by your sister and while your parents stood by.

You are doing great to have come out of it as well as you have.

I meant to say that your mothers continued denial and victimhood is almost the worst part of this now.

Parents make mistakes, we all can, but her denial and defense make this harder for you undoubtedly.

Family is not easily replaceable .
Don’t burn bridges that don’t necessarily need to be burnt for good.
You never know what may happen in the future.
Limit contract if you wish, but don’t let her get you worked up - that’s what she wants. Be unflappable.
BUt yes, take a distance break until you have given birth and recovered.
Don’t give her drama to make a meal of, this is her bread and butter!
Don’t fall into her traps!
Just ignore all the games and play dumb as far as she’s concerned.
Grey rock her.

@billy1966 You give such great advice, your insight is spot on.

OP, I have a sister like this and I lived in a cycle of hope / hopes dashed. I never knew how things would be with her and it was exhausting. I would see her pull the charm for complete strangers but have it in for me for some unknown reason (probabaly simply that I existed as she was the youngest then I came along, the girl of boy /girl twins). After 50 years I decided to go no contact, just blocked her. I miss the sister I wish I had, but I do not miss the drama. She will never get the effect she has had on my emotional well being.

It is so hard, look at narcissitic traits as she sounds like she might fit that personality type.

Dr Sherrie Campbell writes well in her books on the subject.

Definitely invest time in the people who love you, and if you can go no/ or very low contact, do it. Do not aplogise, do not approach her again this holiday, it feeds her narcissism. Do not dance to her tune anymore.

I wish you well. DM me if you need to vent further!

I'm so sorry you're dealing with this, OP. Another one here with a DSis who can be woundingly hot/cold. She can be engaged and generous and a great laugh, or utterly vicious or cut you completely dead. I've realised in the end that these are limitations for her, not me. One way to interpret it is that she is, as a PP has said, very selfish - not materially but with personal compromises. She never willingly compromises, and the rages or cold treatment usually happen when circumstances demand a compromise out of her control or deliver a personal slight.

I used to try to solve things with better communication, believing if we both exchanged points of view we'd reach an understanding. It never worked, she is just not interested in my pov or in reaching an understanding as it would mean giving ground.

I actually dont agree with the PP suggesting you call it out with either your DM or your DSis. That comes from a mindset relating to honest communication and healthy boundaries. From what youve said, neither of them are capable of responding in kind and all you'll get is drama. I think you'd be better off just making your own choices about who to see, where to stay, what to fo without a sense of obligation. I wouldn't block and blow up the family in the same way she does, just be yourself, share naturally on a family WhatsApp group without agenda or just direct with your older DSiis if that's where your main connection is.

I read somewhere that there is no point in seeking validation from or connection with emotionally immature people. It was actually quite liberating. I've given up the notion that my DSis and I can be genuinely close. We can get on well, on her terms, and try to deal with as few serious issues together as possible. It's made a difference to how I engage with her and it's sad, but ultimately I know she doesn't have bandwidth for anything else.

When your mother acts the martyr and says "Oh everything is my fault" respond with "Don't be ridiculous, everything is not your fault. But THIS? THIS is definitely your fault. You enabled her when she was a child and you're enabling her now. I am DONE with putting up with this horrid behaviour."

@billy1966 you’re right, the victimhood is almost the worst part, it’s like being let down again and again because I never get a chance to discuss it and never get my feelings acknowledged. I’m always made guilty to even bring it up. What @DesparatePragmatist says is correct, there is just no way to do confrontation with either of them that would result in anything meaningful for me - mum just shuts me down each time, and sister doesn’t do mature conversation full stop, her cycle is yell at someone - give them silent treatment - wait for them to come back - pretend like nothing happened - repeat. Funny my mum always says that we need to sort it out and talk it through together - when she knows full well my sister just doesn’t do that, so essentially that means that I have to mend it and act like nothing happend as usual.

@ClaraBourne also spot on with missing the sister I wish I had. I’m lucky to be close with my other sister - who understands me completely and knows her for who she is despite her having a complete opposite experience with her (middle sister always looked up to her, copied her, nowadays always invites herself to DSis events etc and I can see how that can also be annoying and unhealthy). I think at this point I don’t even need us to be close but I wish we could be civil. I wish we could meet up as a wider family and have normal conversation once or twice a year without drama, then perhaps low contact during the year. But now she’s mad at me for the low contact so I genuinely don’t know how to achieve anything normal.

I still don’t know how to approach this, I don’t specifically want to burn bridges with both of them because that would hurt me and make them the winners, I would be the family outcast not participating in the gatherings. Having a conversation with them is impossible. Continuing as is is obviously not working either and I am really fed up at this point.

Counselling will hopefully help, and will probably uncover how it relates to my other issues and anxieties. Lifetime of not feeling secure and being let down by the closest family.

As this has gone on for the whole of your life her behaviour - which to others is just 'her' and not a big deal - will be bringing up lots of hurt from childhood, memories of sad and embarrassing and upsetting times - so to you it is much worse.
Maybe do some counselling once you get home to try to be less triggered by it.

@Caradonna yes that is my plan I think. I owe it to my own daughters to not repeat the cycle and this weird dynamic subconsciously. You’re right I’m also more sensitive to any of these individual incidents (that other just brush off) because I have had a lifetime of it.

You can of course play them both at their own game completely too.

Just ignore your sister and her behaviour and make zero effort and contact.

If your mother mentions it, dismiss her, shut her down and deny it, mirror back to her, her behaviour, which is.... complete denial.

Refuse to engage about it,..... speak about your life and baby.

I understand you just want civility, but your sister wants you begging for her attention.

You can just completely withdraw quietly.
Let her ignore you and make no further comment whatsoever.

When your mother tries to guilt you, brush her off with "I'm busy, she's busy, busy life..yada yada" etc.

Acceptance is the key here.

Be careful of wasting years wanting what you can never have, it is completely futile.

I can guarantee you, that as you age, you will eventual likely accept that you can and never will get what you want from either of these people.

But you will regret wasting decades on the wanting.

You will regret the wasted energy used on focusing on what you knew was never going to happen,...that they would change.

So if from posting here, you can shortcut to some acceptance of what your relationship is, rather than what you would like it to be, you will have saved yourself years of fruitless angst.

This will hugely benefit and positively impact your experience of raising a family.

Again @billy1966 excellent points…I think I will do that. No more begging for attention from me, quiet withdrawal.

It took me a while to get to the acceptance phase but I feel like I am closer to it this time more than ever. It was just one drama too many and I have no hope that things will ever be different.

I do feel sorry for her in a way. At the end of the day my parents probably messed her up more than they did me, I have healthy relationships (happy marriage and solid long term loyal friendships) and if anything my childhood probably trained me in focusing on good people and spotting and cutting out toxic people. Her on the other hand, she never got her ways under control, it cost her most of her friendships and is causing issues in her marriage too. In a way it’s not her fault, partly personality, partly upbringing and never being pulled up on it. But she’s mid 40s now, she’s a big girl and could choose to seek therapy and deal with it. It’s not my job to accommodate her or fix her or even worry about her at this point.

I thought I would come back and update, especially since I’m not any closer to feeling better about the situation.

I’ve been successfully NC with my sister ever since, especially since I never made the first step like I usually do, and she never ever does, so if it’s up to her, we can be NC forever.

My mum is now here (in the other country where we actually live) and I’m about to have my second child. Somehow even without direct contact, just by hearing about her or overhearing her on the phone or the request of her DD to see my DD, I get really triggered or downright pissed off (like when she keeps asking my mum if she’s bored here - that was her whole premise, she kept telling my mum to not come visit us now because “it’s not like they will take you on any trips with a new baby” 🙄…

So anyway - it just seems like the only way to get peace is to limit contact with all my family - but that will ultimately just punish me, I’m already missing out on all-family events and having to plan my next visit to my home country etc. But otherwise she will always be there lurking in the background, finding bits of information about me, and family gatherings I will have to not attend because she will always attend. My older sister keeps telling me to “just ignore her, there’s nothing you can do to change her” but it’s easier said than done.

I still haven’t done therapy which I should, and now it will be harder with a new baby around.

Well done for taking things back within your own boundaries OP. You keep doing you. Any silly comments like your mum bring bored - just deserve an eye roll and a 'what's she like' before moving on to something truly lovely and engaging like plans for your beautiful new baby.

You are so reasonable in your search for a bit of peace, but it can be hard to find.
Well done for not contacting your sister.

I would just remind you to remind yourself of just how much energy SHE is expending trying to wind you up.

I can well understand with a new baby due that time is precious but your mental health is precious too.

Seeking out a therapist, perhaps one that deals with family estrangement and CBT would be helpful. Online therapy is very effective according to people I know and is time sensitive.

You really need support.

I am no therapist, just an old woman who has lived a full life and known a lot of people.
Those that put solid distance between those that cause them consistent pain tend to have the most peaceful happy lives.

Your mother is unfortunately a catalyst for upset with you, so if you cannot shut her down and not be upset, perhaps see less of her.

But a therapist would really help you figure stuff out and give you space to vent.

It takes energy to raise children and the energy used by toxic relationships is just HUGE.

When your family suck energy from you and leave you stressed and low, this impacts your immediate family of hudband and children.

Sometimes in life we cannot always have what we want. Sometimes we have to decide what is really important to us and what our absolute priorities are.

I bet your children and their father are yours?
Perhaps you need to reflect on making a tough choice so that your life can be more peaceful?

I'm so so sorry life is so difficult with your family, but ultimately YOU have control and agency with how you want to live your life.

If they are taking your peace and affecting your family life, then maybe you need to make a tough decision.

Remember you cannot change anyone but yourself.

This was for your parents to actually deal with when she was 9, but as they didn’t the situation festered. So they created this. It sounds like your dm continues to enable her and if anything continues to make the situation worse.
However dsis is now old enough to know and act better.
I would speak to her, not to apologise but to tell her you can’t keep dealing with this, does she want to talk things through.
then I would leave her to it, stop messaging, stop communicating at all, don’t invite her places, don’t speak to her. I certainly wouldn’t be waiting around for someone to decide when they do and don’t want to treat me with any respect and common courtesy. Also don’t engage with your mum on this subject. She didn’t wanna get involved when you were a child, she can mind her business and keep her opinions to herself now.
sorry you’re dealing with this op! Certainly not what you need on such limited family time

Sorry I really should have rtft
sorry to hear this is still so stressful. It does show how deeply unhappy your dsis is, why is she so negative otherwise. And perhaps you can feel sorry for her rather than angry - though that is easier said than done. If she wants to find info out about you then I think you have to just work on not caring about that, you can’t control other people and if they’re filled with hate and want to spend their time talking about you, then that’s up to them. She feeds off the drama and you’re obv cutting her off to her usual access.
you can do online therapy if that helps you fit it in with Dc, but it sounds like you’ve made some huge steps anyway, well done
and at least you know you’ll be doing everything in your power to not continue this cycle with your own Dc

If DM tries to push you to make a move I'd just tell her to leave you to sort it out, given that's always been her policy. Once your baby comes get the therapy, do it online with your little baby snuggled up with you, hopefully it will bring you strength. It really will help you. Do tell DM though that you don't want to hear anything about your sister including any phone calls whilst she's visiting. You may find therapy makes you more angry at DM. I'd probably limit (end) contact with DSis and DM and just focus on your older sister. But after some therapy helps you to make the decision that's right for you.

Thank you so much everyone for your comments and kind words, I truly appreciate it.

I think the key to feeling better for me is to figure out how to make this stop bothering me so much. For my own sanity I just can’t keep getting triggered by the same old memories and the usual things. They will never change - DSis definitely won’t, there is no point talking to her, as far as she’s concerned she’s always right and everyone else is wrong. DM wants us to get along but that essentially means getting me to make amends as I always do, and I won’t do it this time. It was just one too many incidents that added up to quite a lot of resentment I’m feeling towards her.

I don’t want to lose DM but it is pissing me off how openly she favors her so at the very least not discussing DSis with her and lowering contact will probably help. Deep down I know a lot of blame does lie with her which is painful and again impossible to discuss with her.

So yeah, I know I can’t change the two of them and what they do or say, I can only change my reaction to it and how much I care. CBT sounds like a good idea and focusing on those that make my life better - I am privileged to have some lovely people and unconditional relationships in my life so that’s something I need to focus on more.

@Marshmallowtoastie
"She didn’t wanna get involved when you were a child, she can mind her business and keep her opinions to herself now."

The above is an excellent point.

Your mother had her chance to parent properly and foster a healthy relationship between her children but decided against it.
She indulged your sisters poor behaviour and allowed her to grow into a controlling bully.

Seeing a lot less of her, combined with good therapy could really help you find some peace, which you deserve.

You are so fortunate that you live abroad and can take control of who visits you, how frequently, and for how long.

I’m actually considering moving back, but I suppose even then I would live some 2+ hours away from where my family is, therefore keeping some distance and control. So far the annual visits actually stress me out more, because it’s always for multiple weeks, staying with DM (though we could figure that one out and stay somewhere else, it’s just extra expense) and harder to avoid bumping into them and the drama. But yes living this far away I shouldn’t give them that much headspace..

I agree my DM enabled her and actually ruined her life more than mine, as DSis is essentially the one with poor relationships in her life. My older sister is also aware of this DSis being the golden child, she gets her share of digs and criticism from both DSis and DM too, only she is much better at ignoring it and letting it go than me (and keeps encouraging me to just ignore, but easier said than done).

I suppose if one good thing comes out of this, it’s the realization of how important it is to treat all children equally. I’m close to having my second DD and I really want them to both feel loved equally and to grow up as friends rather than enemies.

The therapy is key for you and should be your absolute priority.

Lots of people have challenging relationships with siblings and parents, but very kindly meant, you sound as if you are hugely preoccupied, and triggered by them, far far more than is normal.

You have your own life in a different country yet allow this to dominate how you feel.

Your sister is wisely pointing this out to you.

So therapy would help you get to the root of your own mental health, as to why these relationships are dominating you.

You will not do it on your own, so above holidays, meals out, treats, etc., paying for therapy should be your priority.

It will be a huge investment in yourself, your family, your future contentment, to find out why you are so stuck.

Armchair analysis here is that such was the bullying that your parents allowed her to do to you as a young child for years, that you have a bit of CPTSD from it all.

I think you are trauma bonded to your mother from the way she allowed you to be treated so badly.

Therapy could help you break that bond with her and see her clearly......

...a mother who together with your father were really lazy parents that failled their children completely.

Your parents were very selfish to allow you to be treated so poorly when you were so young.

I think as your children grow you will realise that.

Parenting can be hard for sure, but there is no excuse for allowing a child to be as bullied as you were.

You need to find your anger.

Your mother has some cheek behaving as she does, pushing you to have a relationship with your sister when she was allowed to treat you so poorly.

Therapy and finding your anger would help you I think.

Presently you are still stuck, as the scared little girl being bullied by your sister as your parents watch on.
Being bullied at any age has a profound negative affect on a person.
Being bullied within the home, by a sibling, as your parents watch on, must be the worst IMO.

Finding your anger and your voice through therapy will help you I hope.

Ignore the above if you wish, pure armchair!😁

I do get where you’re coming from and do appreciate your thoughts! I think you’re definitely correct about therapy, I just need to prioritize it and make it work with the new baby around but it is important. I’m for sure so triggered by any little thing with them because of those childhood memories. Plus the fact that even when I’m pregnant they just wouldn’t cut me any slack (I’ve had a rough pregnancy too). And while my mother always took her side (or was neutral when she shouldn’t have been), it’s been extra bad ever since my dad died - she sees her as the most helpful one in the whole process and that’s partly because me and my other DSis are just busier (and I’m abroad) while this DSis literally has noone else to spend time with so she is at my DM’s all the time. So those two now have this extra bond and apparently DSis can do no wrong, it does feel a bit “us against them” (with me and other DSis on the other side) ever since the funeral.

My older DSis, while she’s good at not letting it bother her, has her own issues with them, her boundaries constantly disrespected (such as middle DSis coming to her house uninvited all the time ignoring her other plans), criticism and digs from both of them, so while she’s never at the receiving end of the sulking, her situation comes with her own challenges too (and could benefit from therapy and making some changes as well, but that’s up to her obviously).