Is it wrong to end a relationship when you have dc and there's no abuse?

[NancyDrewAPicture]

I've seen a couple of threads recently where posters have said how damaging it is for children and it's made me confused. I grew up in an abusive home and always told myself that I'd never stay with someone "for the sake of the children", but my partner is not abusive and our children will be devestated if we split up.

These are the reasons I want to leave:
I've felt unhappy and neglected for years. Starting with when DC was born. He encouraged me to give up my job, which I did and that was my choice but I was unhappy with the decision and regret it. Every time I mention looking for work he tells me I don't need to, we don't need the money (we don't). Pre-covid he was going to start WFH a few days a week. I asked him which days because on those days he told me he would be able to do school runs so I wanted to find work that would coordinate with that. He kept being vague and fobbing me off and again would say I don't need to worry about working. Not the end of the world, I could still look for a job and arrange childcare but his lack of cooperation and support frustrates me. Then covid happened and that's put that on hold for now.

Another reason I felt unsupported when first dc was born was his to refusal to help with housework. I was tired and recovering from a difficult birth, dc1 wasn't an easy baby, and I found it hard to keep on top of things. I suggested a rota and he swore at me (called me a c*nt, the only time he's used that word to me in our 13 year relationship) and we had a big argument and I dropped it. Nowadays he will load/unload the dishwasher and occasionally run the hoover around. He cooks for himself as he has special dietary requirements.

He has a huge amount of stuff. He will buy more stuff, like food, clothes, crockery, as well as gadgets and bits for himself, without checking if we have any in already or anywhere to put it. He has been stockpiling food and toiletries long before it was a thing, but out of laziness. I stopped putting his laundry away because I was sick of being the only one to do it. He bought more clothes rather than sort through his pile in the utility room. We moved to a bigger house four years ago and every available space is crammed with stuff. The sheer volume of things in the house gets me down. There just isn't room. I was in Sainsbury's last week looking a bowl imagining how nice it would be to live in a small, uncluttered house just me and dc, with a normal amount of crockery and a place for everything to be stored, rather than every cupboard overflowing and every shelf and available space being covered in crap.

We don't have an intimate relationship. He stopped initiating sex years ago. Then I had a relapse of a teenage eating disorder and he told me how unattractive I was, a lot. (His lack of interest began before that). Now I've put on some weight, he seems to find me attractive again but I hate the thought of sleeping with him. We don't kiss.

I think he's an irresponsible parent. He will let our DC (5 and 7) stay up late playing computer games or watching TV, then lose his temper if they're still awake at 2am and say they need medication. They aren't the best sleepers but obviously this would keep most kids awake. (This has happened when I've fallen asleep early).

That stuff aside, we get on ok, and he loves our dc and they him. We have a nice home. We even hold conversation sometimes these days (after years of him more or less ignoring me - not in a cold shoulder way, he was busy with work, golf and fishing in his free time and on his phone in bed). We can rub along fine mostly, though he can have a temper. I think he is happy. DC are happy. It's just me that's unhappy. I know some of the issues I've mentioned are quite trivial (housework and clutter) and some are my own fault (giving up my job, eating disorder). So should I suck it up, find a job and focus on that until the children are older? Truthfully I could carry on but I miss feeling wanted and loved, and I don't want him which I know is unfair on him.

[Treacletoots]

The only acceptable level of abuse in a relationship is none.

OP. I could have cried when I read you saying that you planned to bite your tongue. This is not 1950. You can, and IMHO should work, for your own sanity if nothing else but also I strongly believe you should never be truly reliant on someone else. Ever.

Take this as a wake up. Your life could be better.

[sashamc]

The kitchen and bathroom stuff....you have described my husband to a T. I used to turn a blind eye to it, now it drives me up the wall! The empty bottles!

@MrsDoylesTeaBags - please could you post the title of the book you're reading? I'd be interested to read it myself.

[riotlady]

Leave him, this is not the model of relationships you want your kids to grow up with. What would you want them to do, if they were grown up and in your shoes?

If you were in a healthy, supportive partnership and moaning about having lost “the spark” or something, I might suggest counselling or something to try and work through it. Not for this though, absolutely leave him.

[MrsDoylesTeaBags]

@sashamc its The House We Grew Up In by Lisa Jewell

It's fiction but she must have really done her research as the characters feel increadibly real. The traits of the character that relate to NancyDrews husband are the desire to control others but not being able to control their own impulses. The need for random stuff "just in case".

NancyDrew The more you share the worse it sounds TBH, you can't spend your life walking on egg shells and biting your tongue.
All kids love their parents, you have to be a really nasty abusive shit for your kids especially young kids to not love you, and loving your kids is the bare minimum requirement of a parent. Don't be afraid to put you and your kids first.

[NancyDrewAPicture]

Thank you all very much. I've read enough threads on this board and should have known what the answers would be but it really is hard when you're in it. And I've been living this way for such a long time, nearly my whole adult life. And home as a child definitely wasn't normal so I'm trying to figure out what normal is. Mumsnet has helped a lot in that regard, but it's still difficult to know. I'll read things here posted by others, and they'd make me think, but then he'll be nice for a few days and I will think I'm exaggerating. I question myself all the time. A lot of the time after he's shouted at me for something I've said, when he comes to make up he tells me that I was the nasty one and I go over everything we've said and try to think about what I did wrong or how could I do better. I have started telling myself again and again that I am a relaxed person not prone to starting arguments and that it's unlikely that I am doing this with him as often as he tells me I am. I wonder what it would be like with someone else and what it would be like to feel free because I don't feel like a free person a lot of the time. I'm not a prisoner though. He doesn't stop me doing anything so I don't know why I feel that way. I have this lovely image in my head of living in a nice small tidy home, eating meals with my dc, feeling relaxed, being able to decide things like today I'm going to take the dc to a farm, and just going without feeling anxious that I have to be home at a certain time - even though he hasn't told me off for being late in years and probably wouldn't care as I'd be with dc and not friends, I still get really anxious and panicky if I go out shopping and am home after he gets in from work or something like that.

It depends what type of person you are, how controlling etc he is, would he be willing to change his behaviour, have you had honest open conversations about it, is it even possible?

I really have tried. It doesn't seem to matter how carefully I say things, it ends up with me getting shouted and sworn at and him storming out of the room. He'll come back and say sorry and tell me he's going to make an effort or do XY and Z, and he might for a few days but it doesn't last long.

[Imboredinthehouse]

Each update is just worse and worse.

He didn’t allow you to go out, he’s cut you off from having any friends

it ends up with me getting shouted and sworn at and him storming out of the room

No wonder your confidence is shot.

I wanted to know that it was ok. I had a plan. Find a job, get out

It is ok. Stick to your plan and get out

[MrsDoylesTeaBags]

It must be difficult coming from a difficult childhood understanding how a happy relationship works, and I can totally understand the sadness and fear at facing the reality of your situation, but the scales have fallen from your eyes now and you can see it how it is. I don't know if you could continue as you were, even if you wanted.

[Overthinker1988]

In what way is he not abusive? Everything about his behaviour that you've described is emotional abuse and manipulation. Just because he doesn't hit you or outright tell you that you can't do certain things doesn't mean he's not abusive. He's just doing it more subtly, in an insidious way.
He's controlling you by undermining your self esteem and making you feel anxious.
I've been there myself and I can tell you now, you are being abused, 100%.
In a normal, healthy relationship you shouldn't feel anxious about seeing friends and colleagues, your partner should be supporting your career aspirations and you should be able to speak your mind and discuss things without being sworn at and called names. Your partner shouldn't make you feel unwanted and unattractive. Please realise that this isn't a normal way to live and you deserve better.

[NancyDrewAPicture]

Ok maybe it is abusive. I think it's because it doesn't happen all the time, and it's also because of things he says sometimes like that when the dc are older they'll realise that I am the bad guy in the relationship, and he seems so convinced of it.

With the calling me unattractive, he says he was trying to shock me into eating. Tough love he said. I know it isn't easy to see someone around you get like that but I do find it hard to forget some of the things he said. I did look awful though, I could see that too. I started to make an effort to eat as part of my leaving plan. Once I decided I wanted out I knew I'd have to change. I was getting too weak to look after myself and dc properly and couldn't even think about working in that state. I still find it hard but because I have a goal I focus on that, and think about the meal times I could enjoy with dc in future in the home I imagine us living in.

[Dery]

"Ok maybe it is abusive. I think it's because it doesn't happen all the time, and it's also because of things he says sometimes like that when the dc are older they'll realise that I am the bad guy in the relationship, and he seems so convinced of it."

What you have been describing is abusive. It doesn't happen all the time because even abusers don't abuse their partner 24/7 - no-one would tolerate that. Plus it's probably tiring to be abusive all the time.
So even abusers can and do behave well. They're still abusers. Not sure if anyone's already recommended it (they probably have) but you may find it helpful to read "Why Does He Do That" by Lundy Bancroft (www.docdroid.net/py03/why-does-he-do-that-pdf)

Also "Women Who Love Too Much" by Robin Norwood.

It's great that you are visualising a calmer, happier future enjoying mealtimes with your DC and planning how to get there. The situation you're in now is incredibly damaging for you and will also be damaging your DC so it's great that you're working towards making the split. You might find some helpful information here to help your planning: www.marriage.com/advice/separation/thinking-about-leaving-your-husband/

[Dery]

www.docdroid.net/py03/why-does-he-do-that-pdf

[NancyDrewAPicture]

I have seen the Lundy book recommended to people on other threads but I never thought it would be relevant for me. I will look at everything you've sent. Thank you.

[Scott72]

This resolved itself by some things breaking/me "accidentally" breaking things when he wasn't around. (I know that's bad and I should have donated them somewhere)

That's not really bad. Second hand shops tend to have far too much crockery, clothing, toys, cheap electrical stuff - all the stuff your husband apparently likes collecting. Most of it would be close to worthless. Most of it probably should just be thrown out. Although if your husband has a hoarding problem this would be actually painful for him to do, and he'd just quickly replace it with more junk.

[Cambionome]

You sound absolutely crushed by him op.

[IdblowJonSnow]

This does all sound abusive to be honest op.
Not healthy for you or your kids. Get out asap.

[SamMarie37]

You certainly are not the bad guy here and don't let him tell you that!
He is trying to buy their affection and that will only work for so long. If you have grown up in an abusive home, you know what it's like and that you don't want that for your children.
It is also no wonder you have suffered from an eating disorder for the things he has said, he has alienated you and sounds like he has made you depressed and so lonely. I'm so sorry you are going through this, please build yourself up to leave him and stick to your plan!
It will be better for your mental and physical health, along with your relationship with your children.
I am so sorry you are going through this but you WILL get past it 💕

[BlingLoving]

Oh OP. Every single one of your updates made my heart sink more and more. I was just on a thread about why women don't divorce and had just made the point that often it's because they've been told repeatedly that THEY are the problem/it's their fault. Or that the behaviour they don't like from their husband is normal. But it's not.

I agree with others. This IS abuse. It started with him isolating you from friends, family and colleagues. He exacerbated this by insisting you not work when the DC were born. You haven't said, but I'm guessing you have limited financial control - is all money shared in one account with equal access? Or are you on an allowance that just covers the necessaries for you/the kids/the house? I'm guessing the latter.

He ensures that everything in the house is the way he likes it by shouting at you when you question anything and making it so that you don't feel you can challenge what he says or his behaviours.

He's trying to convince you the kids will see you as the bad guy. I suspect the way he spoils them with toys is part of this - he wants to be able to point to "but I always bought you what you wanted" as they get older. The good news is that I don't think this works long term. Children aren't stupid.

You need to start making sure you're protected. Get that job after lock down. Can you squirrel away money now? Start talking to friends , if you have them, or family, about what's happening. Next time the school organises a social event, go along and start trying to meet people.

[CaptainBlunderpants]

He's a lot better than my father was. That was proper abuse to my mum.

This. This is the crux of the problem. You see him as not as abusive as your father so therefore he can’t be. His abuse isn’t as bad so you should just put up with it. Your bar of what is acceptable was low to begin with. Like, but he doesn’t hit me.

As a pp said, the only level of acceptable abuse is none.

He is abusive, he sounds awful.

[NancyDrewAPicture]

You haven't said, but I'm guessing you have limited financial control - is all money shared in one account with equal access?

He made his account a joint account. When I first went on mat leave I had £15k saved up and paid all the bills until the money ran out, then we switched everything over to his and he made it a joint account. I have a card but don't see the statements.

He started to pay me an allowance because I asked him to. I wanted the independence and I didn't like using the joint account because he scrutinised what I spent. He paid the allowance but got into his head that I was saving up to leave him. I wasn't, it went on things like groceries, clothes, cafés with dc, birthday presents etc. He kept quizzing me about it and getting angry. Then our mortgage temporarily increased and he said he had to move money in from his savings account to stop us getting overdrawn. He got angry again and said he doesn't spend anything on himself, he pays the bills and gives me money and has nothing left for him. It's very obvious that isn't true. I'm not a huge spender and he thinks nothing of spending a few hundred pounds on things he wants.

I said that even with the increase in mortgage (which has now gone back down), if we're spending his whole salary each month then there must be things we can cut back on because it didn't make sense. I asked if we could look at his statement and work out if there's anything we can reduce, maybe get a better gas and electric deal or maybe we are paying for things we shouldn't be. I said if it's true that he's left with less than he gives me, we need to reduce it to make it fair, but can we just have a look together. He was very angry and said I just wanted to see his statement so I could criticise him for treating himself. I said no, you can scribble things off if you want so I can't see, I only want to see what our main outgoings are on bills and things like that. He eventually said it was sensible but went off to his office and I knew that it would never happen and he didn't want me to see his bank statement. The following month I found out he had stopped the direct debit to my account for my spending money and since then I've been told to use the joint account.

He makes most financial decisions without even mentioning them to me. Things like utilities, insurance, big household purchases and so on. He once said he was going to the garage on his way out the door, and came back later with a new car having left our old one behind. He hadn't told me anything about it. I don't know if I'm right to be annoyed by this sort of stuff, but I am. It doesn't feel like a partnership and it makes me feel like a child.

I'm back to being firm on leaving him, I was just having a shaky moment. Thank you everyone who has replied. And I'm sorry all my posts have been so long. I don't get much chance to talk. I'm conscious I sound greedy and entitled over money that isn't mine, and all I can say is I really am not. I just know there's an imbalance that wouldn't be there if our roles were reversed.

[Overthinker1988]

Oh Op, your updates make me so sad. You've been so ground down by him that you're constantly putting yourself down. You're not greedy or entitled and it IS your money. It's family money. You gave up your job to be a SAHM, therefore facilitating his career. You have every right to this money and like you say, it should be a partnership. I'm glad you can see that and I hope you get the strength to leave. You'll be so much happier for it.

[FaithInfinity]

Oh OP. Just because he’s not as bad as your Dad doesn’t mean it’s not bad. I’m not surprised all the money is gone each month if he keeps going out and buying crap! You would be totally justified to leave.

Can I suggest you do The Freedom Programme online as a starting point? It doesn’t take long but I suspect if you do it you’ll recognise behaviours of your Dad and your H. Imagine a future where it’s a nice home, kept tidy with just you and the kids, you’ve found a job...how does that make you feel?

[NancyDrewaPicture]

I've been reading the Lundy book linked above and I will look at the freedom programme too, thank you. He isn't as extreme as the men I have read about so far in that book, and he doesn't fit any of the types of man but has traits from them all.

I've reread everything I've posted here and I'm surprised how so many of you can see he is controlling. He still is controlling I think, but the stuff that happened with my friends and with work colleagues and going out was so long ago and he does say he wouldn't be like that anymore.

There are a couple of recent things niggling at me a bit. Like he's decided that my brother is not allowed in our house ever again. He was violent and abusive to our dm and has addiction issues, so the reasoning makes sense and we have little contact anyway so it's unlikely to come up, but I feel uneasy by it. Firstly if db ever were to come here, and he has before things got very bad, he'd be on his best behaviour. He always has been when he visits us and especially in front dc who he has a soft spot for, and he wouldn't ever be left with them unsupervised. Secondly is it right for my h to make that decision, shouldn't it be my decision to make or at least a joint one? Or is it ok for him to decide because it's in the dc's best interests?

There is a similar situation with my father and I know that he would not be welcome here. He also was abusive, including CSA to me. I haven't had any contact with him in 10 years and he's never met my dc, and that probably is for the best for obvious reasons but I don't feel like I really have a say. It was my decision to cut contact with him initially, especially when I had my dc, but recently I found out he has a serious illness (though not critical) and I started to think about calling him but I thought what if he asks to meet dc? I think I would be ok with him doing so, wouldn't leave him alone with them though. I was more imagining a short visit to his house. I haven't called him and haven't spoken to h about any of my thoughts because I think he would get angry. And it's not wrong to not want your DC to be around abusive people so he is right. I just can't imagine banning various members of his family from coming to our house or meeting our dc but then his family don't have history's of being violent, sexually abusive addicts. Oh I really don't know. They probably are the right decisions, it's just that I don't have space to think through or decide things for myself, the decisions are all made without me. That's what makes me feel uncomfortable I think.

H has also been really different recently which is one of the things that made me confused. He keeps being nice to me. It's disconcerting and I don't understand it. He did snap once last week and shouted "fuck you" at me a few times before storming off, but when he came back he said felt bad about it and he went back to being nice again. It feels like he's making a proper effort to be nice to me. I just don't understand it all, I can't remember when he was last this nice and it makes me anxious because it's just so weird.

[NancyDrewaPicture]

They probably are the right decisions, it's just that I don't have space to think through or decide things for myself, the decisions are all made without me.

Sorry to quote myself - but this is kind of a pattern. He makes decisions on things and they're always reasonable or make sense, and he's right and I can see why. It's just that there's no or minimal dialogue, things are just decided.

[arethereanyleftatall]

No, it would not be wrong to end this relationship. He is awful. In fact better now, before the dc get older. I've just divorced, also no abuse, and am happy to report the kids are fine. In fact, since I'm happier, it's actually nicer for them. My 9yo literally can't care less, in fact she's excited to be getting 2 houses. 11yo it's been a bit harder for but she's mainly fine. The younger the better. Good luck x

[NancyDrewaPicture]

Thank you arethere. I'm glad your children are both doing well even if it took a bit of time for the 11 year old. I'm glad you're happier too. It must feel like a real weight has lifted.