Are men generally less confident these days?

[Aggieisback1]

I have met a number of men since divorce 2 years ago. When I was last single in my 20s men all seemed to be full of confidence and not mind knock backs. Maybe it's because 25 years have passed but so so many of the men I've met recently are really quiet and lacking in confidence. I'm also surprised how many 40 & 50 sthg men have never been married. Ironically it is the divorced ones who seem the cockiest and the shy guys low on self esteem. Wonder of anyone else had noticed this?

[corythatwas]

I see the point about many women being unwilling to perform traditional male roles.

But I also see a great number of men who consider themselves very modern and equal because they are doing the merely physical part of traditional women's work, like sewing on buttons and ironing, but somehow don't seem to notice that their wives are still performing a massive job of emotional caretaking that has also traditionally been part of the woman's role.

Men, if you are the go-to parent for your teen's broken heart, or their worries about the mental health of a friend, or their fears that their stomach pain might be something more than normal indigestion- then good on you, you have done your job well! But if you are not the parent they would normally go to with their unhappiness, then that probably represents hours and hours of work put in by your wives or female partners without you even noticing.

My dad was considered an enormously modern man by the standards of my childhood because he changed nappies and cooked dinner on a regular basis. But I have never been able to tell him that my own dd has serious MH issues and has frequently been suicidal. The fact that I can tell my mother is the direct result of hours and hours that she has put in on listening to me, talking to me, signalling that she is available and that there is nothing so unbearable that she is not prepared to hear it for my sake. Add to that the fact that she has performed the same job for my 3 brothers and for my father and for her father at the end of his life, and you will hopefully see that in terms of hours this stacks up rather more than a bit of dusting and hoovering. My dad otoh, a most kindly and loving man, told her on their honeymoon that she must never expect him to talk about emotions because he can't do that. Heaven knows how many hours of draining and exhausting work that has saved him!

My own dh again is brilliant with doing housework, probably does more than me and earns more money than I do (though we work equal hours). But I am the one who knows when dd is beginning to feel bad again, I am the one who knows which one of her friends is having a difficult time at uni, or which one is struggling with her sexuality. I am the one who knows exactly what tone to strike to make dd feel brave and positive, to encourage dh after a trying day at work, or make ds feel he can pass his exams. It's not something my family have elected me for because they all believe it's women's work. It is work I do because I am the one who notices when it needs doing. It means constant watching other people to gauge their emotional needs. It's draining.

Compared to that, the paid job I do is a piece of cake. I suspect that may be why so many of the successful women in my field are single.

[engineersthumb]

So are men and women emotionally and therfore socially different or the same? If different it would suggest that there are roles that are more likely to be best fulfilled by on or other. In a partnership this should be OK?
Perhaps some of the confusion and lack of communication firenze the op is observing is due to the negativity presented around being male. It seems women can do no wrong but evil men are a scurge and must be informed if how inferior they are at every opportunity!

[engineersthumb]

*"lack of confidence" auto correct is a pain!

[corythatwas]

engineersthumb, I very strongly suspect that we are socialised into this and as women grow up knowing that we are expected to take on the social wellbeing of our families.

Certainly I felt this very strongly as a child. I have a brother of approximately the same age, we are both very similar characters: scholarly, ambitious, quite talented, somewhat introvert. The difference was that there were no silent expectations on him to make people happy. We were both expected to do well at school and achieve highly in extra-curricular intellectual and musical activities. The difference was that when he had learnt his practice pieces and his German vocabulary, his work was done and he could withdraw into his room and think about whatever he liked. I grew up feeling that such an attitude on my part would be very selfish: that somehow I should first be looking around to make sure everybody was happy, that somehow if anybody was unhappy or at odds with anybody else I wasn't "off duty".

40 odd years later and we are still the same: he thinks his job is done if he is successful in his career and not unpleasant to other people. The "wife work" is performed by his ex. I otoh am the one still sitting up half the night with an unhappy family member.

It isn't that I couldn't have been him and lived happily for my career. I have female friends who do that. But they are single. I could see myself doing that. But I could only see myself as having the right to do that if I was not responsible for anybody else's happiness. I.e. I'd have to be single.

[corythatwas]

It was very subtle pointers that taught me what my job was.

My DM saying to me "I thought you would understand", but never suggesting that maybe DB ought to understand.

When my grandmother arrived for a visit, frail and suffering from newly developed dementia, my DM discussed the situation with me, and for various reasons (GM hated her DIL) I as a teenager ended up taking on the caring duties. My DB, who is only a year younger (and was physically stronger) managed to stay on the outskirts to such an extent that he still denies, to this day, that she was at all confused. There was simply no way I could have got away with that level of complete ignorance.

[corythatwas]

As for these expectations of a knight in shining armour, I am not sure women's expectations are any more unrealistic than men's. I certainly don't know any women who expect these knights- what would a knight even look like?

Otoh I do know quite a few blokes who think it is quite ok for a man to let himself go a bit physically but not for his wife. Who think it's fine for a bloke to look older than the woman he is with, but not for the woman to look older than the bloke. Who think women should dress smartly but don't feel the need to stick to the same standards for themselves.

[HelenaDove]

Oscareye I would prefer the second description/list. Seriously. I prefer a bloke to look a bit lived in.

Cory.........after id lost a lot of weight i got comments from men about how id been really HUGE before (10 stone heavier) and how i look great now and i should keep it off. The couple of men who made these comments were very overweight. Im still not small at a size 14 and i also have lipodema . The pressure on women to look and be a certain way is immense. Im childfree by choice and ive seen other women get scathing comments and abuse from men for making this choice. Yet men moan about doing childcare

I sometimes read the dating threads on here and believe me Oscareye the men on sites can be just as demanding. Especially the well off ones It does make me laugh when they expect women to keep going on coffee and cake dates or meals and yet still expect the woman to stay a size 12. I can tell you that its not possible to do that especially as an older woman when your metabolism has slowed down.

Reading the threads on here i know damn well that online dating is not and never will be something i would do.

[Girlywurly]

The fact that I can tell my mother is the direct result of hours and hours that she has put in on listening to me, talking to me, signalling that she is available and that there is nothing so unbearable that she is not prepared to hear it for my sake. Add to that the fact that she has performed the same job for my 3 brothers and for my father and for her father at the end of his life, and you will hopefully see that in terms of hours this stacks up rather more than a bit of dusting and hoovering.

Yes, yes, a thousand times yes! Thank you corythatwas, you put that much better than I could've.

[emilybrontescorset]

I think also that divorced women are more confident.
They have usually had to deal with not only their own pain of divorce but those of their children too.
Yes men feel pain also but in the vast majority of cases men do not become the primary carers.
This means that women have to cope with the fall out it has on the dc.
Getting through that makes you tough. It also makes you more choosey.
I for one do not want to spend time doing wifework for anyone who simply isn't my everything and quite frankly as was mentioned up thread a lot of women still have the love and support of their children, friends and family.
Men on the other hand tend not to invite friends over for coffee or see their family as often.
This leaves them alone more often and may damage their confidence.
I also get what men are saying about women wanting it all.
Yes I agree I think women tend to be happier alone if the man doesn't live upto expectations. Whereas a man wants a cook and cleaner( awful I know) and if they have relied on a woman for this can't adjust as easily to being single.
It is also easier for women to go out and have sex and just sex, then go home to their pleasant house without having to bother about cleaning up after a man.
I know this sounds terrible but from my own experience and that of every divorced friend I have , we all felt like we did the vast majority of all the grunt work whilst married.

[DixieFlatline]

Great posts, cory.

[seoulsurvivor]

In my experience, women get more confident as they age and men get less confident.

Women get freer from the constraints of society as they realise they've been fed a load of shite about having to be pretty and quiet and whatever. Men also realise they've been lied to: that they're powerful and strong and so on. They realise that sometimes they're not strong, they're not powerful. And I think this affects them a lot.

In my 20s, I was cripplingly worried what people thought about me, but actually less so than most women around me. As I've got older, I've cared less and less. The men around me in my 20s were so confident: now I see them having crises of confidence all around me.

It's quite interesting.

[Changedname3456]

Cory - those are very thoughtful and thought provoking posts.

I'd only say (from observation of close friends - some of whom I've known all my & their lives) that the nurturing role isn't always expected of all the daughters in a family, where there are more than one. From what I've seen, one tends to be assigned the job and it all lands, somewhat unfairly, on her.

In my own case (one brother) there's definitely an expectation from my mother that I will be a confidante to an extent. I'm not naive enough to think it's anything like as much as if I'd been a daughter, but it's there nevertheless.

I'd like to think my daughters would come to me with problems and they do - but I unhappily concede the point that they open up more to their Mum than me, although not because of any lack of interest on my part. Not being physically there every night and therefore "available" to notice / ask / listen to them doesn't help.

[Aggieisback1]

I think men and women have both been sold a pup but perhaps women realise it earlier. The "you don't exist unless you are young and gorgeous and you have to look after others emotional wellbeing" stuff thrown at women well we know it is nonsense as everyone will get older and while some have listening skills, not all do, and frankly I wonder if men would end up being better off emotionally and socially if they too were socialised to look out for others from a young age. If having basic social skills, keeping yourself looking well, learning to resist the power of advertising, developing links with others, looking after a home etc were expected of and taught to everyone well the emotional burden and the emotional benefits would fall more evenly. It is interesting watching the differences in the younger generations. DS is late 20s,has a demanding enough job and has lived abroad and alone for much of his 20s. As he has worked and lived through recessions, uncertproperty crisis etc he and his male peers seem to have a very different view of how to live than men my age.

[TheFifthKey]

Emilybronte- you are spot on there with what divorced women want. I'm baffled at those who go out immediately and get married again - why would I want to get shackled with the wifework of some other man when I'm relishing not having to do any? I suit myself, I have my house as I want it, I provide for my family financially, I can have sex and male company without taking on someone else's emotional burden.

And that list of "requirements" of men in online dating is bollocks! Mine was - around my age (not twenty years older, why would I want an old man?), in a professional job (because I am, and I think parity of lifestyle is important, not because I'm interested in a man's money, because I'm not), fairly attractive and not massively overweight (because I'm attractive and slim), has some outside interests and friends (because I do and I don't want to be the centre of someone's life)...I'd never ask anything of a man I don't offer myself.

[PollyPelargonium52]

I don't need a guy to do DIY gardening and decorating all those 'male' tasks for me as I pay the handyman and the gardener and I have a friend I can pay to do the decorating.

They certainly don't need to provide for me but cannot be a financial or emotional burden.

I don't find underconfident men at all attractive but nor do I find arrogant men lure me in.

To be honest it is easier single!

[Girlywurly]

To be honest it is easier single!

Exactly the conclusion I've come to. Men demand a great deal, and often don't give much in return.

[PollyPelargonium52]

Too true Girlywurly I recently went out with an on off ex for the umpteenth time it has reminded me how blissfully easier it is to remain single, have our free time to spend how we please and I can raise ds how I please also without his two penneth which was 40 years out of date anyway! This time I told him to never approach me again and I mean it.

Ds is only 12 I don't have it to give and even if he is 15 or 16 I may even prefer to be out socialising than get saddle with another demanding male. He had wanted to meet up 3 times a week it was way too much. It felt such a relief to call it a day!

[PollyPelargonium52]

In reply to a response earlier about men not doing housework the three single men I know are all highly domesticated and can cook. In fact one is a chef. I still wouldn't want any of them though!

[emilybrontescorset]

I think men who have been single for a while are probably more domesticated but that in itself isn't enough.
Can you imagine a man thinking a woman is a catch simply because she can put petrol in her own car and clean it herself?
Also times have changed and men who have been in long term relationships are probably finding the single women they meet much more independent and picky about what they will and won't accept.

[Aggieisback1]

You'd have thought then that men would evolve to be more independent and see the value of being able to take care of themselves. Some instead caterwail that women's expectations are higher than the actual ones which are essentially about being a net asset to a partners life.

[Girlywurly]

Maybe it's about entitlement, Aggie? As though the love of a good woman is the birthright of everyone with an XY chromosome?!

[VictoriaandBump]

Girlywurly your post really struck a chord with me. I definitely feel that my most profound love is for my children, I've never felt a connection like it. Sadly I think this went some way towards the breakdown of my marriage. Granted, there were a lot of problems in our marriage, I always felt resentful that my ex left all the childcare and wife work to me. From the minute I had my 2 dc, my love for them just grew and grew, yet the love I had for my husband seemed to diminish. I'm quite a guarded person and, probably a bit closed off emotionally. Except when it comes to my children!

I've been single a year now and have been on a few dates. The men I met were all quite recently out of relationships and were very keen to get back into serious relationships. They seemed to dislike living alone, and gave off a pitiful 'poor me' vibe. I completely agree with Emilybronte, I'm really happy living on my own and can't imagine living with a man any time soon. I have my kids with me 4 nights a week, the rest of the time I see my friends, run, do yoga, read etc. It's bliss!

I'd like to find someone who'd be happy to meet once a week/fortnight for dinner, walks, movies & sex! Someone who doesn't expect to be constantly texting all day, who's also independent and likes their own space. Not sure if I'm being realistic here, my friends think I'm crazy!

[Gwenhwyfar]

"I do think 40 plus men could do with dressing better and oral hygiene/skincare though.."

Skincare is a big one. I often see men with eczema on their hands, yet won't use a cream because it's too feminine, or will only use it occasionally. Same thing with refusing to use sun cream.

[Gwenhwyfar]

"I'd like to find someone who'd be happy to meet once a week/fortnight for dinner, walks, movies & sex! Someone who doesn't expect to be constantly texting all day, who's also independent and likes their own space. Not sure if I'm being realistic here, my friends think I'm crazy!"

Men claim that's what they want. I always laugh when I read on here about women who want to date, but don't want a full-on relationship because so many single women are in the opposite situation with a boyfriend who'll see them once a week and they can't get more from them.

[PollyPelargonium52]

I think one day a 24 hour tryst would be adequate for me, I will wait until ds is 18 and hopefully moves out......

I really don't want somebody round my neck - I have been married 3 times and lived with 4 men and have preferred being single for years now!